Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

[Anna Scott]

Again, lots of good information, but no one has actually answered the question of why Christ had to die.

So, was God bound by something that made it impossible for Him to forgive sins without a blood atonement? I can't imagine this being the case, since God is our creator. I cannot imagine anything higher that God. God is infinite.

So, did God simply choose death as the method of atonement? Could God forgive sins without a blood atonement?-- which is what Jesus did throughout His ministry. He freely forgave sins-no sacrifice was involved.

It's a tough question. I fear that we cannot answer why blood atonement is the only way. It seems strange that sacrifice of animal and eventually the man Christ, would be so similar to the pagan practices.

I have not received any comments on all the Scriptures I quoted-other than to say that one can prove anything when taking Scripture out of context. I am aware of this. But, are we to ignore those Scriptures (see Post #1). Can someone explain them and put them in context?

Still many questions, and no clear answers.

Anna

[planten]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

I am a Christian, and I want to be able to answer this question. I believe that God is infinite and that He brought all things into being. So, there cannot be anything before God or any law higher than God. God must surely make the rules. So, I think it is reasonable to ask why Christ had to die.

The O.T. does reveal a point, when God seemed to no longer desire a sacrifice or blood atonement for sins.

Micah 6: 6 "With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
............
Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

One of the most intriguing passages in the NT reveals Jesus agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is more important than "all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

This seems to be a very strange thing for Jesus to say, since he came as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
.........
.In addition, John proclaimed Baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3: 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1: 4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Anna, I have read only your first post and the verses of Bible OT and bible NT you have mentioned. Excellent post from you and the verses you have selected. I am surprised. I agree with your post 100%. That is the right way of a religion. God does not want human sacrifice. And we have to think if Jesus was a mere human.

After the sacrificial offering of a son by Abraham, all human sacrifice was disallowed. I do not want to meddle into the christian belief about atonement and forgiveness of sins by the death of Jesus on the cross. It appears from your post that God did not want any sacrifices. I just repost only a small part of your post below:

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Whatever others may think about your post, I am enlightened to read all those verses of the Bible OT/NT. I shall try to read them again and again, and I may even come back with more remarks. Excellent work from you. Keep hunting, investigating. May God bless you with more guidance. Love and Justice is the answer.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by planten

. . .I am surprised. I agree with your post 100%. That is the right way of a religion. God does not want human sacrifice. And we have to think if Jesus was a mere human.

After the sacrificial offering of a son by Abraham, all human sacrifice was disallowed. I do not want to meddle into the christian belief about atonement and forgiveness of sins by the death of Jesus on the cross. It appears from your post that God did not want any sacrifices. I just repost only a small part of your post below:

Whatever others may think about your post, I am enlightened to read all those verses of the Bible OT/NT. . .

planten:

I appreciate the Muslim point of view on these Scriptures. I am glad you appreciated my effort. However, it is not my intention to lead people away from Christ and His atonement for our sins.

I set out to find an answer to the Jewish question regarding why anyone had to die, since God is God and He makes the rules.

I realize that one can prove almost anything from the Bible by using selected verses out of context. Yet, I have not heard from anyone regarding the proper context of the Scriptures I posted. Some offered their own selected Scriptures--all good info, but none answered the question.

The Scriptures I posted list all the things God desires rather than Sacrifice: mercy, justice, to love kindness, to walk humbly with God, to do righteousness and justice, to obey God's voice, to walk in the way God commanded, to have the knowledge of God, to love God and your neighbor.

Christ actually commanded us to learn what this means:

Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Is there no Christian, who has learned what this means and can explain I desire mercy, and not sacrifice?

Everyone who responded gave good information about Christ and God; but no one actually answered the question: If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Originally Posted by jakasaki

The answer my dear is in the Bible.... Start of the beginning Genesis and get to the end. Read everything, take notes & you will understand.

Originally Posted by heathernoel

For me, it goes back to offerings: the purpose was to show Him how sorry we were for our sins. His people seemed to understand sacrifices. . .

Our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin. . .

Originally Posted by Charlie Zeaiter

Because sin must be punished with death. This is one of the rules of creation. And instead of changing the rules - which isn't just - God offers himself to bear the punishment of our sin. Now, his descendants - whom he loves so much - will live a long life (Isaiah 53:10).

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

And of course, the short answer is that your friend 'cherry picked' Scripture posts which ONLY dealt with texts that could be useful to support his theory, and ignored Isaiah 52, ignored Christ's words about His own death, ignored Psalm 22, etc. etc.

You can 'make' Scripture support virtually anything by 'cherry picking' and then interpreting only what you want that Scripture to be 'saying'. . .but only by testing Scripture as a whole and relating it to ALL of Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and not just on phrases taken out of context, will your friend be able to understand correctly. So long as he is bent on 'proving a point' I fear he will only take what he thinks 'bolsters' his view and will ignore the rest. . .

Originally Posted by geometer

These verses make it clear that he was the saviour of the whole nation of Israel.

Jhn 11:48 If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation."

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Christ had to die to pay the price for our sin against God so we can be brought near to God. . .

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

God is bound by His attributes. Since God is perfectly Holy and just, we know God cannot do anything unjust and unholy. We know God cannot be tempted by evil, and we know God cannot sin. . . The cross is the perfect manifestation of His justice and His love, resulting in the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. . .

Originally Posted by heathernoel

I think eternal death is the punishment for not repenting for sins...does that make sense? I think even Judas had a chance to repent. Whether or not he did, I'll have to wait for the answer

Perhaps he chose death because we as people understand it as a finality. I don't think God is bound by anything...he's God But in a way He is bound by His word...

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

I think you are seeing it right. A Christian's life is holding on to the precious promises of God. To believe in His promises is the kind of faith that pleases God. God cannot do all things. For example, we know through Scripture that it is impossible for God to lie; therefore, we can have faith that His promises will come to pass.

Is there no Christian who can answer this?

Discouraged,
Anna

[DOShea]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Again, lots of good information, but no one has actually answered the question of why Christ had to die.

So, was God bound by something that made it impossible for Him to forgive sins without a blood atonement? I can't imagine this being the case, since God is our creator. I cannot imagine anything higher that God. God is infinite.

God is also just. The interaction between God and man, instituted BY God, was a covenant relationship. He said "I call heaven and earth to witness" (to this covenant), and laid before man two choices; obey the terms of the covenant (choose life) or ignore it (choose death). Part and parcel of that covenant were the rules God gave, the punishments God demanded, and the method (animal sacrifice) used to atone when man, in his weakness, falls prey to sin and wishes to repent, to come back into communion with God.

There is nothing special about the blood of lambs or bulls that magically pays for a man's sin. Those sacrifices were symbolic, that is, they demonstrated the price of sin was death, blood being the symbol of it. But that blood was itself insufficient. It was only a precursor to what would come later, the living Messiah whose own spilled blood paid the actual price, who, being without sin or blemish, paid in an unjust way the ultimate penalty demanded by God's justice. Jesus was the unblemished lamb.

So, did God simply choose death as the method of atonement? Could God forgive sins without a blood atonement?-- which is what Jesus did throughout His ministry. He freely forgave sins-no sacrifice was involved.

Not really. Jesus frequently asked questions like "Do you believe..." and also was able to see into people's hearts and knew with perfect understanding if they were truly sorry for their sin or not. Notice how people who demonstrated faith and repentance before Him were treated as opposed to some of the Pharisees and scribes, described by Jesus as hypocrites, people who demanded of others what they would not do and were not the least bit sorry about it.

It's a tough question. I fear that we cannot answer why blood atonement is the only way. It seems strange that sacrifice of animal and eventually the man Christ, would be so similar to the pagan practices.

You are making an assumption that is WAS the only way. It wasn't, but it WAS the way that God chose, and you'd have to ask Him why - we don't get to know the mind of God.
Examine any current law of any legitimate government and ask the same questions. Is this law the ONLY way? No, it isn't, but it was the way the law makers felt was most effective at dealing with the problem addressed by the law. Why can't God do the same thing with His laws and rules?

I have not received any comments on all the Scriptures I quoted-other than to say that one can prove anything when taking Scripture out of context. I am aware of this. But, are we to ignore those Scriptures (see Post #1). Can someone explain them and put them in context?

Still many questions, and no clear answers.

Anna

Anna, it is a losing game to let someone else choose a few bits and pieces of the entire collection of scripture, then demand someone else use only those to "explain" something. Could you explain what kind of vehicle I drive if I only show you the tires?

Scripture tells a complete story, the story of many covenants between God and man. Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. and it works its way to what the Son of God Himself called "the new and everlasting covenant." He even foretold the events of it and established a memorial to that all-important event.

All of that, btw, is foretold in the prophecy of God speaking through Malachi, in Ch. 1 of his "book." The Holy Spirit, speaking through Malachi, says that the Jews have profaned the sacrifice and that God will no longer accept their sacrifice as a result. Instead, He will accept the more pure sacrifice of the Gentiles, who also offer Him worship and incense.

That is one primary reason why the Catholic Church looks upon the Mass, specifically the Liturgy of the Eucharist as a sacrifice, and is the only religion extant that has that sacrificial aspect to it.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by DOShea

God is also just. The interaction between God and man, instituted BY God, was a covenant relationship. He said "I call heaven and earth to witness" (to this covenant), and laid before man two choices; obey the terms of the covenant (choose life) or ignore it (choose death). Part and parcel of that covenant were the rules God gave, the punishments God demanded, and the method (animal sacrifice) used to atone when man, in his weakness, falls prey to sin and wishes to repent, to come back into communion with God.

There is nothing special about the blood of lambs or bulls that magically pays for a man's sin. Those sacrifices were symbolic, that is, they demonstrated the price of sin was death, blood being the symbol of it. But that blood was itself insufficient. It was only a precursor to what would come later, the living Messiah whose own spilled blood paid the actual price, who, being without sin or blemish, paid in an unjust way the ultimate penalty demanded by God's justice. Jesus was the unblemished lamb.

Not really. Jesus frequently asked questions like "Do you believe..." and also was able to see into people's hearts and knew with perfect understanding if they were truly sorry for their sin or not. Notice how people who demonstrated faith and repentance before Him were treated as opposed to some of the Pharisees and scribes, described by Jesus as hypocrites, people who demanded of others what they would not do and were not the least bit sorry about it.

You are making an assumption that is WAS the only way. It wasn't, but it WAS the way that God chose, and you'd have to ask Him why - we don't get to know the mind of God.
Examine any current law of any legitimate government and ask the same questions. Is this law the ONLY way? No, it isn't, but it was the way the law makers felt was most effective at dealing with the problem addressed by the law. Why can't God do the same thing with His laws and rules?

Anna, it is a losing game to let someone else choose a few bits and pieces of the entire collection of scripture, then demand someone else use only those to "explain" something. Could you explain what kind of vehicle I drive if I only show you the tires?

Scripture tells a complete story, the story of many covenants between God and man. Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. and it works its way to what the Son of God Himself called "the new and everlasting covenant." He even foretold the events of it and established a memorial to that all-important event.

All of that, btw, is foretold in the prophecy of God speaking through Malachi, in Ch. 1 of his "book." The Holy Spirit, speaking through Malachi, says that the Jews have profaned the sacrifice and that God will no longer accept their sacrifice as a result. Instead, He will accept the more pure sacrifice of the Gentiles, who also offer Him worship and incense.

That is one primary reason why the Catholic Church looks upon the Mass, specifically the Liturgy of the Eucharist as a sacrifice, and is the only religion extant that has that sacrificial aspect to it.

DOShea:

I appreciate all that you said.

I do understand that we must look at Scripture as a whole. I am aware of the passages where God would not accept sacrifice, because of the heart of the people.

Yet, that was not the case at every point when God asked for things other than Sacrifice. So, I don't think we can dismiss these passages altogether.

God did ask for all these things rather than sacrifice: mercy, justice, to love kindness, to walk humbly with God, to do righteousness and justice, to obey God's voice, to walk in the way God commanded, to have the knowledge of God, to love God and your neighbor.

It seems that you are saying God chose the "Sacrifice" of Christ, but could forgive us however He chooses. Please correct me, if I misunderstood you.

I know that we are not to question God's intentions. He is the Potter, and we are the clay. Still, it is disturbing to think that God chose the torturous death of Christ as the means of reconciliation.

Your point regarding the Catholic Church and the sacrificial aspect of the Eucharist is very interesting, when considering the topic of this Thread.

So, should we answer our Jewish friends by saying that God chose human sacrifice (Christ as perfect man) as the method for the atonement of sins? That sounds rather disturbing, when I say it out loud--especially in light of pagan practices.

Anna

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Anna,
With your permission, I'm going to add a perspective that in a way deals with the question of the "problem of evil".

As you are aware, Mormons believe that everyone has within their eternal past, a period of time when they existed as an "intelligence"--a spark of individual being that had its own identity. Spirits were "organized" or formed from intelligences, and God the Father desired to provide a plan whereby the spirits whom He had organized could progress toward becoming perfected beings. His plan was perfect. His plan retained the balance that is in the Universe--the balance that included a law of justice and penalties when any spirit in the Universe violates the agency of other spirits or violates the innate goodness that God desires to originate from the actions of those spirits whom He has organized.

The penalties for violations of laws must be paid, somehow, in order for the Universe to remain in a balanced condition--an equilibrium. The Father, desiring the progress of those other spirits besides Christ who was already perfect, provided a plan and accepted the Volunteer who offered to come to this earth to pay the penalties that would be exacted when those spirits made mistakes and thus committed violations of eternal laws.

The Volunteer was Jesus Christ, and He did that in the pre-mortal councils in Heaven where He was the FirstBorn, and the Beloved Son of the Father who was perfect. Jesus volunteered because of His love for us--the billions of spirits who needed a Savior so that we could experience earth life where we would make mistakes which meant we would certainly sin and would have to otherwise receive just suffering because of those sins.

The infinite atonement provides mercy for us to be cleansed every whit, through the redemption Christ offers. There was not any other way that the balance and equilibrium in the Universe could be maintained and yet allow for the mistakes that needful, progressing spirits would make as they assumed the role of having agency and making choices in this life.

Peace to all, and to you, Anna.

[crisco]

Anna,
an excellent book on this is the classic by St. Anselm of Canterbury "Cure Deus Homo" (why God became man). Also, Aquinas's Summa has a few good chapters on the topic. I can also highly recommend Gary Anderson's recent book "Sin - a history" - he's got a few chapters at the end that examine Anselm's 'satisfaction' theory of the atonement. Jesus offers satisfaction (not to be confused with suffering punishment by God). For a different take try looking at some of Rene Girard's work (Christ's sacrifice is a sacrifice to end sacrifice) as expounded by Mark Heim in his book "Saved from Sacrifice". C.S. Lewis also deals with this in a chapter of Mere Christianity (chapter title - the perfect penitent). All great stuff.

The short answer is that God didn't 'need' to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. The mechanism is complex indeed.

[wmscott]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Crucifixion of Christ-Why Did He Have to Die?

A Jewish author posed a very important question which I have not been able to answer, and it bothers me that I cannot answer the question.

Question paraphrased:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did anyone have to die for our salvation?

I am a Christian, and I want to be able to answer this question. I believe that God is infinite and that He brought all things into being. So, there cannot be anything before God or any law higher than God. God must surely make the rules. So, I think it is reasonable to ask why Christ had to die.

The O.T. does reveal a point, when God seemed to no longer desire a sacrifice or blood atonement for sins.


Matthew 9: 12 But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."


So, I hope someone can help me answer this question:

If God is God, and He makes the rules, why did Jesus have to die for our salvation?

Anna

Just looking at one of your points Matthew 9:13, taken from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary
(Menochius) --- Mercy, and not sacrifice. Christ here prefers mercy to sacrifice; for, as St. Ambrose says, there is no virtue so becoming a Christian as mercy, but chiefly mercy to the poor. For if we give money to the poor, we at the same time give him life: if we clothe the naked, we adorn our souls with the robe of justice: if we receive the poor harbourless under our roof, we shall at the same time make friends with the saints in heaven, and shall afterwards be received by them into their eternal habitations. (St. Ambrose) --- I will have mercy and not sacrifice: these words occur in the prophet Osee, chap. vi. The Pharisees thought they were making a great sacrifice, and acceptable to God, by breaking off all commerce with sinners; but God prefers the mercy of the charitable physician, who frequents the company of sinners; but merely to cure them. (Bible de Vence)

The Haydocks can be a good source to see things put into proper context.

[Eric Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Anna, I feel that forgiveness hangs on the greatest commandments

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, did he live by the greatest commandments?

Jesus loves God the Father with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

When the people of Jeruselam shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should continue to love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scurged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After the acsencion of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each
and every one of us as he loves himself. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

I guess God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it? Our sins separate us from God, and we might just give up hope if we thought our sins could not be forgiven.

At least we know that on the cross Jesus forgave, and if he can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also.

Blessings,

Eric

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Anna,
With your permission, I'm going to add a perspective that in a way deals with the question of the "problem of evil".

As you are aware, Mormons believe that everyone has within their eternal past, a period of time when they existed as an "intelligence"--a spark of individual being that had its own identity. Spirits were "organized" or formed from intelligences, and God the Father desired to provide a plan whereby the spirits whom He had organized could progress toward becoming perfected beings. His plan was perfect. His plan retained the balance that is in the Universe--the balance that included a law of justice and penalties when any spirit in the Universe violates the agency of other spirits or violates the innate goodness that God desires to originate from the actions of those spirits whom He has organized.

The penalties for violations of laws must be paid, somehow, in order for the Universe to remain in a balanced condition--an equilibrium. The Father, desiring the progress of those other spirits besides Christ who was already perfect, provided a plan and accepted the Volunteer who offered to come to this earth to pay the penalties that would be exacted when those spirits made mistakes and thus committed violations of eternal laws.

The Volunteer was Jesus Christ, and He did that in the pre-mortal councils in Heaven where He was the FirstBorn, and the Beloved Son of the Father who was perfect. Jesus volunteered because of His love for us--the billions of spirits who needed a Savior so that we could experience earth life where we would make mistakes which meant we would certainly sin and would have to otherwise receive just suffering because of those sins.

The infinite atonement provides mercy for us to be cleansed every whit, through the redemption Christ offers. There was not any other way that the balance and equilibrium in the Universe could be maintained and yet allow for the mistakes that needful, progressing spirits would make as they assumed the role of having agency and making choices in this life.

Peace to all, and to you, Anna.

Parker, I appreciate your viewpoint. You say there was no other way. So, does that mean you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?

Originally Posted by crisco

Anna,
an excellent book on this is the classic by St. Anselm of Canterbury "Cure Deus Homo" (why God became man). Also, Aquinas's Summa has a few good chapters on the topic. I can also highly recommend Gary Anderson's recent book "Sin - a history" - he's got a few chapters at the end that examine Anselm's 'satisfaction' theory of the atonement. Jesus offers satisfaction (not to be confused with suffering punishment by God). For a different take try looking at some of Rene Girard's work (Christ's sacrifice is a sacrifice to end sacrifice) as expounded by Mark Heim in his book "Saved from Sacrifice". C.S. Lewis also deals with this in a chapter of Mere Christianity (chapter title - the perfect penitent). All great stuff.

The short answer is that God didn't 'need' to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. The mechanism is complex indeed.

crisco:

Thanks for all the reference material. I will check into these.

Thank you for giving a direct answer: "God didn't 'need' to do anything, but freely chose this route because He thought it was the absolute best and perfect means to demonstrate His infinite grace/mercy and love. "

In a previous Post, I said to DOShea: So, should we answer our Jewish friends by saying that God chose human sacrifice (Christ as perfect man) as the method for the atonement of sins? That sounds rather disturbing, when I say it out loud--especially in light of pagan practices.

Does the choice of human sacrifice, as the method of atonement, sound disturbing to you in any way? I'm just wondering.

Anna

[crisco]

Anna,
you've got to remember who's doing the evil act of injustice here - it's the Romans and the Jewish leadership (Herod and the Sanhedrin). They're putting to death an innocent man. God uses it for His reconciling purpose.

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Parker, I appreciate your viewpoint. You say there was no other way. So, does that mean you believe God was bound by something higher than Himself, which made it impossible for Him to forgive sins any other way?


Anna

Anna,
As you may be aware, Mormons believe that God uses His power in the Universe in a completely truthful way. He abides by truth, and that is consistent with His power. The Universe is an organized system where truth exists, and where equilibrium exists. This is why current science is trying to understand dark matter--equations have to balance in a balanced system, and the Universe is a balanced system.

Whether God ordained that system or whether He is "bound by something higher than Himself" would not matter based on the inherent balance within this system of our Universe. An off-balance or arbitrary system would not work. It could not work.

Also, the effective granting of agency to organized spirits would cease to be effective if the law of justice were not in place in the Universe. Spirits would cease to have a complete trust that their choices and actions would have a certain result. They would come to believe their choices and actions have an arbitrary result, depending upon the whims of God. That kind of system would not work to allow for the progress of those spirits. Faith could not be exercised, and covenants could not be made with any sense of assurance by either party to the covenant.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by wmscott

Just looking at one of your points Matthew 9:13, taken from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary
(Menochius) --- Mercy, and not sacrifice. Christ here prefers mercy to sacrifice; for, as St. Ambrose says, there is no virtue so becoming a Christian as mercy, but chiefly mercy to the poor.

For if we give money to the poor, we at the same time give him life: if we clothe the naked, we adorn our souls with the robe of justice: if we receive the poor harbourless under our roof, we shall at the same time make friends with the saints in heaven, and shall afterwards be received by them into their eternal habitations. (St. Ambrose) --- I will have mercy and not sacrifice: these words occur in the prophet Osee, chap. vi.

The Pharisees thought they were making a great sacrifice, and acceptable to God, by breaking off all commerce with sinners; but God prefers the mercy of the charitable physician, who frequents the company of sinners; but merely to cure them. (Bible de Vence)

The Haydocks can be a good source to see things put into proper context.

wmscott:

I really appreciate this commentary. I was hoping for something from the ECF. So, thank you for taking the time to quote this.

So, St. Ambrose is saying that the Sacrifice, of which Jesus spoke, was not the Sacrifice for atonement? I can see how Matthew 9:13 could be interpreted this way.

However, I thought Jesus was quoting Hosea, which names "burnt offerings," specifically:

Hosea 6:6 (ESV):

6For(A) I desire steadfast love[a] and not sacrifice,
(B) the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Footnotes:

a. Hosea 6:6 Septuagint mercy

Cross references:

A. Hosea 6:6 : Cited Matt 9:13; 12:7; 1 Sam 15:22
B. Hosea 6:6 : Hosea 2:20

Hosea 6: 4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Jesus does speak of mercy and not sacrifice again, and this passage might indicate the kind of Sacrifice St. Ambrose discussed:

Matthew 12: 1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath."

3He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Yet, things turn in a different direction In Mark. We find Christ agreeing that loving God and your neighbor is "much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." So, Christ is naming "burn offerings."

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.[/color]

I think Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:7, and Mark 12:33 were the only instances in the NT, in which Christ mentioned "Sacrifice." Someone, correct me, if I am wrong.

Still, throughout the NT, Jesus forgave sins, without instructing those he forgave to go and make a sacrifice to complete the forgiveness.

I think if we isolate Matthew 9:13, we could interpret this as a reference to a "non-atonement" Sacrifice, but that doesn't seem to fit Mark 12:33, or the OT Scriptures to which Jesus refers.

Can you comment further?

Anna

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Remember that God orders blood sacrifice throughout the OT. The Torah, especially in Leviticus 16 (to quote one example), instructs the order of blood sacrifice that was to be made to forgive the Israeli people of their sins. They were still expected to live godly lives, and they could be forgiven for their sins outside of the blood atonement ceremonies. So if your Jews ask why Jesus had to die or why God can't just forgive everyone, ask them in return why - during pre-Temple-destruction Judaism - God couldn't just forgive everyone and had to have lambs and rams die?

You ask why did Christ forgive people of their sins before the crucifixion? It was to show who He was. We know He wasn't a sinner, but this would be interesting if He was merely a man. Even the Pharisees wonder what kind of person would do this. Christ could forgive sins because He was God and had the power to do so, and was beginning His earthly ministry.

But I think you are limiting the scope of the crucifixion: Christ's death was more than simply forgiving everyone of sins, although that is the focal point that springs from it. Mankind had sinned and fallen into a sinful nature that separated them from God. In both body and soul, the people were desolate. When they died they returned to Sheol, the underworld where good and bad went. Man could worship God, but mankind and God were not united as they were in the Garden.

The Incarnation changed this. The Son of the Trinity entered into our sinful nature, taking on our sinful flesh, and living life not only with a full divinity but a full humanity. He experienced every temptation and encountered every problem. Then it finally came time for His crucifixion, which He accepted as the will of the Father. When He died He descended into Sheol where all men go - but now something different happened. The gates could not comprehend His full divinity, and the gates were shattered, and all who wished to follow God ascended to Paradise. Now those who follow Christ are able to be free of the death that separates us from God, and are reunited as Adam was in the Garden. That image of God - mankind - was made capable to be untarnished. As Orthodox liturgy says, Christ is risen from the dead "by death trampling down death."

So, why did Christ die? He died so we could live.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Eric Hyom

Greetings and peace be with you Anna, I feel that forgiveness hangs on the greatest commandments

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, did he live by the greatest commandments?

Jesus loves God the Father with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

When the people of Jeruselam shouted, crucify him; did Jesus forgive them, in order that he should continue to love them as he loved himself? When the soldiers scurged him, and nailed him to the cross, did he forgive them?

It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. After the acsencion of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each
and every one of us as he loves himself. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

I guess God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it? Our sins separate us from God, and we might just give up hope if we thought our sins could not be forgiven.

At least we know that on the cross Jesus forgave, and if he can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also.

Blessings,

Eric

Eric,

Interesting viewpoint.

I am thinking about your answer: "God could say your sins are forgiven, and he has the power to do this, but would we believe it?"

Do you think, we could only believe our sins are forgiven, by the knowledge that Christ forgave, even those who Crucified Him?

Christ did, indeed, reveal the great love that God has for us, by showing forgiveness in the midst of great suffering on the cross. So, you make an interesting point.

You said, "After the ascension of Jesus into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself."

So, Jesus could not love us, as He loves Himself, unless he forgives us? That would mean that in order to love all mankind, He would have to forgive all the sins of mankind. This idea seems to touch on universal salvation. Was that your intention?

Anna