ACA (of TAC) - Some Dissent Over Constitution?

[RevDrNorth]

This was interesting. It is from Virtueonline and reports some dissent in the pews and among some clergy over the idea of going to Rome. It reports parishes looking to join the Anglican Church in North America. Maybe GKC is correct about the seeking of union with Rome being top down driven. I guess only time will tell:

This branch of the Continuing Church movement is in turmoil, a source has told VOL. "Many in the ACA are very upset that the people in the pew were not consulted about seeking the protection of the Roman Catholic Church. Many are now threatening to move to other jurisdictions as they have no intention of going that path. The Bishops in the ACA have sent out pastoral letters asking for a time of study of the Apostolic Constitution, but the people are saying they have no interest whatsoever to do so. The Bishops backs now are against the wall."

One rector, Fr. Lewis Glidden wrote, "Being the Rector of Holy Trinity and Saint Stephen The Martyr, I am disturbed that ACA/TAC's going down this road with Rome. I cannot understand why we as Anglicans and believers in the 1928 the book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible are even considering open communion with Rome. First of all, the head of the Roman church is not the Holy Father. Second, it appears to me that we are just asking for trouble. History has shown Christianity what the Roman church is. When any Christian church would stand by and turn their backs on the sludder (slaughter) of millions of Jewish people. I know we are all sinners, and only saved by God's grace. But I have a hard time dealing with barberic (barbaric) behavior of Roman History. The Pope is not the head of the church. God gave his only begotten son Jesus Christ and gave us Holy Scripture to follow. I see no place in it where any one man can be elevated or elevate himself to the level of the Holy Father Almighty God. I guess will end my comments here. But I will not be in (any) uprising to any attempts to change the Anglican Church or give-up any parts of Faith and Traditions." Said a source, "[The ACA] are hell bent on going to Rome. The people in the pews are now saying loud and clear "study Rome no more". The phones in the ACNA have been ringing off the hook from ACA parishes asking for application forms to join."

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...?storyid=11601

[bpbasilphx]

One thing about ACNA.

It's trying to remain in communion with Canterbury, but without having female clergy or gay bishops.

In other words, they are simply sticking their heads in the sand.

[RevDrNorth]

Originally Posted by bpbasilphx

One thing about ACNA.

It's trying to remain in communion with Canterbury, but without having female clergy or gay bishops.

In other words, they are simply sticking their heads in the sand.

Actually, ACNA is not in communion with Canterbury. Certain parts of ACNA are (AmiA & CANA, Southern Cone) through their sponsoring national church (eg Ruwanda, Nigeria, Uganda and S. Cone). ACNA is trying to be recognized.

If I recall correctly Archbishop Bob Duncan's diocese does indeed ordain women to the priesthood. Other parts of ACNA do not and will not. None will elevate women to Bishop status. None knowingly ordain practicing homosexuals. Though they are careful to affirm the dignity of gay people and that no hatred or mistreatment is acceptable.

It can only be hoped that some miracle pulls Canterbury and the TEC back from the brink but I fear this is unlikely. The TEC is leaking money and congregants like a sieve. Seems to be a combination of people leaving the liberal TEC and the TEC desire to sue parishes and dioceses. The CofE is not in great shape either. What is growing and thriving is the biblically orthodox global South and from that may come the saving grace of the Communion. In North America it is the biblically Orthodox parts of the Communion like AmiA, CANA, the ACNA coalition and the continuum preserving the faith.

[GKC]

+Duncan is the impetus in ACNA for women's ordination, yes.

GKC

Originally Posted by RevDrNorth

Actually, ACNA is not in communion with Canterbury. Certain parts of ACNA are (AmiA & CANA, Southern Cone) through their sponsoring national church (eg Ruwanda, Nigeria, Uganda and S. Cone). ACNA is trying to be recognized.

If I recall correctly Archbishop Bob Duncan's diocese does indeed ordain women to the priesthood. Other parts of ACNA do not and will not. None will elevate women to Bishop status. None knowingly ordain practicing homosexuals. Though they are careful to affirm the dignity of gay people and that no hatred or mistreatment is acceptable.

It can only be hoped that some miracle pulls Canterbury and the TEC back from the brink but I fear this is unlikely. The TEC is leaking money and congregants like a sieve. Seems to be a combination of people leaving the liberal TEC and the TEC desire to sue parishes and dioceses. The CofE is not in great shape either. What is growing and thriving is the biblically orthodox global South and from that may come the saving grace of the Communion. In North America it is the biblically Orthodox parts of the Communion like AmiA, CANA, the ACNA coalition and the continuum preserving the faith.

[MarkBrown]

Most Evangelical Anglican Blogs and the Continuum Blog are against this union and
do not wish to go. Much of the bluster I have read on these sights, and others, are
attempts to spin doctor the Consitution in a bad light. Just go to Stand Firm, T19 and
VOL and sights linked to them. You see a couple of things: Some are still in the TEC and are upset about the events in the TEC that have occured since 2003. Not too much before. They started getting upset with their Bishop Vicki Gene and how fast the TEC has fallen since then, prior to this TEC was just fine for them. They are not Catholic in their mindset or theology. StandFirm is proudly Calvinistic. Unfortunately too many think having incense and bells makes you Catholic.

About this "report". A few malcontents speak and suddenly the TAC/ACA laity are in rebellion. A bigoted anti catholic priest spews forth such drivel and suddenly everything is falling apart for the Union? Think about this. TAC/ACA came out of the Continuum which left the TEC in 1979 over the changes in the PrayerBook and WO! Continuing Churches REFUSED to join the ACNA over the practice of some within the ACNA of practicing WO.
So these ACA parishes are going to join the WO ACNA instead of ACC, APCK, UCENA, and the other many continuing groups who have a "pure" form of Catholicism?

ACNA has many groups that ordain WO. AMiA, the largest group with about 5 of the Diocese of ACNA, CANA, AMiAiC (Canadian branch), Diocese Holy Spirit, the New Diocese in the Jacksonville, Fl area, San Joaquin may join these ranks. Bishop Schofield is ill and set to retire in 2010. The possible replacement, Gandenberger, is soft on WO. Which groups in the ACNA are growing the fastest? Why it is the WO groups like AMiA, CANA etc. ++Duncans WO Diocese added four parishes recently. AMiA brought in a Vineyard pastor, made him a Bishop and is looking to bring Vineyard Churches into ACNA. AMiA is aggressively planting parishes. They have the money and size that groups who are against WO, like REC, do not have.

I can not see ACA parishes going to ACNA. But they are Anglicans and Continuum and I have learned not to be surprised by either group. Will every Anglican go to Rome. No. It is a personal decision to be made. I guess I am just getting tired of the Highschool girl antics I am seeing coming from some of the Anglican groups that oppose even discussing the offer. We have too many Drama Queens like this Rector on the scene, we need to pray for guidance and let the Anglican Bishops meet and decide. Above all we need to act with better form. This vile spew from this Anglican Priest shames all Anglican Priests.
I thought we were suppose to be better than this.


Fr. Mark

[RevDrNorth]

Originally Posted by MarkBrown

Most Evangelical Anglican Blogs and the Continuum Blog are against this union and
do not wish to go. Much of the bluster I have read on these sights, and others, are
attempts to spin doctor the Consitution in a bad light. Just go to Stand Firm, T19 and
VOL and sights linked to them. You see a couple of things: Some are still in the TEC and are upset about the events in the TEC that have occured since 2003. Not too much before. They started getting upset with their Bishop Vicki Gene and how fast the TEC has fallen since then, prior to this TEC was just fine for them. They are not Catholic in their mindset or theology. StandFirm is proudly Calvinistic. Unfortunately too many think having incense and bells makes you Catholic.

About this "report". A few malcontents speak and suddenly the TAC/ACA laity are in rebellion. A bigoted anti catholic priest spews forth such drivel and suddenly everything is falling apart for the Union? Think about this. TAC/ACA came out of the Continuum which left the TEC in 1979 over the changes in the PrayerBook and WO! Continuing Churches REFUSED to join the ACNA over the practice of some within the ACNA of practicing WO.
So these ACA parishes are going to join the WO ACNA instead of ACC, APCK, UCENA, and the other many continuing groups who have a "pure" form of Catholicism?

ACNA has many groups that ordain WO. AMiA, the largest group with about 5 of the Diocese of ACNA, CANA, AMiAiC (Canadian branch), Diocese Holy Spirit, the New Diocese in the Jacksonville, Fl area, San Joaquin may join these ranks. Bishop Schofield is ill and set to retire in 2010. The possible replacement, Gandenberger, is soft on WO. Which groups in the ACNA are growing the fastest? Why it is the WO groups like AMiA, CANA etc. ++Duncans WO Diocese added four parishes recently. AMiA brought in a Vineyard pastor, made him a Bishop and is looking to bring Vineyard Churches into ACNA. AMiA is aggressively planting parishes. They have the money and size that groups who are against WO, like REC, do not have.

I can not see ACA parishes going to ACNA. But they are Anglicans and Continuum and I have learned not to be surprised by either group. Will every Anglican go to Rome. No. It is a personal decision to be made. I guess I am just getting tired of the Highschool girl antics I am seeing coming from some of the Anglican groups that oppose even discussing the offer. We have too many Drama Queens like this Rector on the scene, we need to pray for guidance and let the Anglican Bishops meet and decide. Above all we need to act with better form. This vile spew from this Anglican Priest shames all Anglican Priests.
I thought we were suppose to be better than this.


Fr. Mark

The ACA priest's statements about the holocaust ARE over the top and seem to reflect some bias as are his implications about the RC "barbaric" history. One could as easily point to issues in Anglican history and say the same thing.

The Pope's offer IS generous though it may not be for everyone. Moderation and charity are certainly in order.

[GKC]

Originally Posted by MarkBrown

Most Evangelical Anglican Blogs and the Continuum Blog are against this union and
do not wish to go. Much of the bluster I have read on these sights, and others, are
attempts to spin doctor the Consitution in a bad light. Just go to Stand Firm, T19 and
VOL and sights linked to them. You see a couple of things: Some are still in the TEC and are upset about the events in the TEC that have occured since 2003. Not too much before. They started getting upset with their Bishop Vicki Gene and how fast the TEC has fallen since then, prior to this TEC was just fine for them. They are not Catholic in their mindset or theology. StandFirm is proudly Calvinistic. Unfortunately too many think having incense and bells makes you Catholic.

About this "report". A few malcontents speak and suddenly the TAC/ACA laity are in rebellion. A bigoted anti catholic priest spews forth such drivel and suddenly everything is falling apart for the Union? Think about this. TAC/ACA came out of the Continuum which left the TEC in 1979 over the changes in the PrayerBook and WO! Continuing Churches REFUSED to join the ACNA over the practice of some within the ACNA of practicing WO.
So these ACA parishes are going to join the WO ACNA instead of ACC, APCK, UCENA, and the other many continuing groups who have a "pure" form of Catholicism?

ACNA has many groups that ordain WO. AMiA, the largest group with about 5 of the Diocese of ACNA, CANA, AMiAiC (Canadian branch), Diocese Holy Spirit, the New Diocese in the Jacksonville, Fl area, San Joaquin may join these ranks. Bishop Schofield is ill and set to retire in 2010. The possible replacement, Gandenberger, is soft on WO. Which groups in the ACNA are growing the fastest? Why it is the WO groups like AMiA, CANA etc. ++Duncans WO Diocese added four parishes recently. AMiA brought in a Vineyard pastor, made him a Bishop and is looking to bring Vineyard Churches into ACNA. AMiA is aggressively planting parishes. They have the money and size that groups who are against WO, like REC, do not have.

I can not see ACA parishes going to ACNA. But they are Anglicans and Continuum and I have learned not to be surprised by either group. Will every Anglican go to Rome. No. It is a personal decision to be made. I guess I am just getting tired of the Highschool girl antics I am seeing coming from some of the Anglican groups that oppose even discussing the offer. We have too many Drama Queens like this Rector on the scene, we need to pray for guidance and let the Anglican Bishops meet and decide. Above all we need to act with better form. This vile spew from this Anglican Priest shames all Anglican Priests.
I thought we were suppose to be better than this.


Fr. Mark

I agree. When I state, as I do, that the union crusade was top-down driven I mean that the impetus and direction for it was within the episcopate of the TAC. I don't know what percentage of the laity,or what percent by province/parish will go, but I expect a majority. But, as I said from the start, not all. I've heard of parishes that have left the ACA even before the Constitution was announced, over the effort to achieve it. No doubt that more will do so, now that the event is imminent.

GKC

[RevDrNorth]

Originally Posted by GKC

I agree. When I state, as I do, that the union crusade was top-down driven I mean that the impetus and direction for it was within the episcopate of the TAC. I don't know what percentage of the laity,or what percent by province/parish will go, but I expect a majority. But, as I said from the start, not all. I've heard of parishes that have left the ACA even before the Constitution was announced, over the effort to achieve it. No doubt that more will do so, now that the event is imminent.

GKC

I suppose only time will tell. One article I read said that conversions to the RCC by Anglicans could start early next year. As it begins to happen we should get a better idea of movement in that direction. Also, how it will all work. Since there is no ordinariate I don't think anyone is too sure.

I would sort of guess that the ACA (those going) would become the first ordinariate (at least in North America).

[GKC]

Originally Posted by RevDrNorth

I suppose only time will tell. One article I read said that conversions to the RCC by Anglicans could start early next year. As it begins to happen we should get a better idea of movement in that direction. Also, how it will all work. Since there is no ordinariate I don't think anyone is too sure.

I would sort of guess that the ACA (those going) would become the first ordinariate (at least in North America).

Seems logical to me. But, as always, my crystal ball is cloudy.

GKC

[Gerry Hunter]

A word about David Virtue's articles. I knew the man, and he is a 100% Protestant Anglican. He lacks any positive disposition towards Rome, although I would not label him as any kind of anti-Catholic. However, there are those in Anglicanism for whom union with the Catholic Church is simply not an option, and he is one of them.

David writes and publishes from that perspective. I think, though, it would be wrong to say his journalism is tainted by bias in this area.

Blessings,

Gerry