Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by JReducation

That being said, the Orthodox and the Catholics (Eastern and Roman) are moving toward a reconciliation. When this happens, the pope will be the head of the entire Church: Roman, Eastern and Orthodox.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Goodness, why do you think that???!!! Not that it wouldn't be nice, but I can't see any evidence at all that such a thing is likely in the foreseeable future.

[crm114]

Originally Posted by manualman

Methodist ... the catholic idea of apostolic tradition and continuity .. :

Well the Methodists did come out of the Church of England.

It will be interesting if some Catholic-minded Methodists come forward and petition for entry into the personal ordinariate based upon their being from the Anglican tradition...

[HankHardisty]

Originally Posted by JReducation

The part that I bolded is inaccurate. Eastern Catholics have patriarchs. That is true. But they do not look to the patriarch as the final authority on matters of faith and morals. They look to the pope. The Eastern Catholics are not Roman Catholics, but they are part of the Catholic Church and the pope is the head of the entire Catholic Church. Therefore, the Eastern Catholics submit to the authority of the Successor of Peter as the only legitimate infallible head of the Church.

You may be thinking about the Eastern Orthodox. They are led by patriarchs. They do not look to their patriarchs as the source of infallible teachings either. They look to the Ecumenical Councils for that. This is consistent with Catholicism in that we too believe that Ecumenical Councils have the power to teach infallibly when all of the bishops are united as one voice. The difference between the Orthodox and the Catholics is that the Catholics include the pope in the Ecumenical Council, whereas the Orthodox do not.

That being said, the Orthodox and the Catholics (Eastern and Roman) are moving toward a reconciliation. When this happens, the pope will be the head of the entire Church: Roman, Eastern and Orthodox.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, you are correct Br. JR, I was thinking about the Eastern Orthodox and you are right they do look to the 7 Ecumenical Councils for their source of faith and morals. However, I do not see the move towards reconciliation, if by that you mean submission to the Pope. It is great that they are meeting with one another and talking rather than shooting anathemas, at each other.

The Eastern Orthodox are not very united with each other and I think that is their focus especially in the United States, where there are a multitude of jurisdictions, and they see the need to unite. Regarding Roman Catholicism, I see two points upon which the EOs say there is no compromise:

1) the Filioque
2) the authority of the Pope

With the authority of the Pope, dogmas like Transubstantiation and the Immaculate Conception are items to which they deny adherence, despite the fact that they teach the same doctrine.

I may have missed something, so I would be grateful for any information that you may send my way showing the EOs moving towards Rome.

Hank

[HankHardisty]

Originally Posted by crm114

Well the Methodists did come out of the Church of England.

It will be interesting if some Catholic-minded Methodists come forward and petition for entry into the personal ordinariate based upon their being from the Anglican tradition...

So true, crm114, John Wesley was an Anglican Priest, and was not seeking to start his own church. In 1749, he wrote a letter to a Catholic outlining all that is held in agreement between the two. The similarities in the essential doctrines is what makes it easier for me to move toward Rome. I did have to overcome the learned bias against the Roman Catholic Church, promoted by nearly every Protestant preacher. I did this by examining the Eastern Orthodox, for which there is no built-in bias.

I have not heard of any large group of Methodists converting to Catholicism, just individuals. There is too much hard-line Protestantism in the Methodist Church for there to be a general reconciliation. To the dismay of many Methodists, Calvinism and Fundamentalism has crept in through various TV preachers that members watch.

Methodist catechesis practically does not exist and what did exist has become so horrible. For numbers sake, almost anyone is allowed membership regardless of what they believe or understand.

The sad thing is that Methodists were not always like this.

[crm114]

<<two points upon which the EOs say there is no compromise:
1) the Filioque
2) the authority of the Pope>>

Well then we are in good shape because

1) The Pope has recited the creed without the Filioque while visiting Eastern churches. It was added by the West, and It is optional.

2) In Ut Unum Sint JP2 indicated his willingness to discuss new ways to exercise his primacy. He did not use ther word supremacy. Benedict will be similarly generous, or more so.