Do you think CS Lewis would have come over to Rome if he were still alive?

[GKC]

Originally Posted by PTD

He would have converted to RC. He was influenced by history. In his time Anglicanism was still apparently reliable in orthodoxy. It was still following the momentum of the past in upholding what he called "mere Christianity". History since 1963, not only for Anglicanism but mainline Protestantism, shows this momentum (without a living driver) is actually unreliable. He would admire current evangelicalism (especially if he met people like Tina, see her posts). But he would have concluded that they were relying on the same steering mechanisms (Sola Scriptura, and the momentum of tradition) that allowed the mainline to recently go terribly wrong. 50 years ago the mainline churches were as reliable as the evangelicals are now. The liberals still say, even today, that they (liberals) are following the Bible and are evangelical in the deepest sense. He would have reluctance about turning to Rome, especially if he met inconsistent Catholics as myself. But I think he would have re-read what Newman said in the 1800's about Protestantism and history. Newman predicted what actually did happen since 1963 for most of Protestantism, and Lewis would have concluded the flaw of Protestantism eventually would undermine the evangelicals too.

This does not indicate much of a knowledge of Lewis.

GKC

[Brendan]

Considering the state of the CoE today, I think he probably would have.

[Lion of Narnia]

If he had lived maybe 10 more years (1973) maybe yes, maybe no.

If he had lived to see John Paul the Great, more chance of that.

Today, he'd be swimming the Tiber.

If Henry Tudor, (the VIII) of England had been given a vision of the latest Lambeth conference, he would have donned a hair shirt, and after getting off the boat at Calais, would have walked to Rome, doing the last 10 miles on his knees, to give penance before the Holy Father

[GKC]

Originally Posted by Lion of Narnia

If he had lived maybe 10 more years (1973) maybe yes, maybe no.

If he had lived to see John Paul the Great, more chance of that.

Today, he'd be swimming the Tiber.

If Henry Tudor, (the VIII) of England had been given a vision of the latest Lambeth conference, he would have donned a hair shirt, and after getting off the boat at Calais, would have walked to Rome, doing the last 10 miles on his knees, to give penance before the Holy Father

In what way would you assume that seeing JPII would have overcome his objections to the RCC, as stated in his 1945 letter?

GKC

[tomarin]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Considering the state of the CoE today, I think he probably would have.

There's a fallacy at work in your reasoning here, namely that there would be no options open to him other than convert to Catholicism or remain Anglican.

[masuwerte]

No, because he'd be 111 years old

[PTD]

Originally Posted by masuwerte

No, because he'd be 111 years old

"If he were still alive"? Of course he's still alive, in the deepest sense. So you think a mind like his can be silent, even now? Of course he wrote a few letters (out of volumes) that expressed preference with the Protestantism of the 1940's. But he also read history, including history as it was unfolding. He was not a man who "followed" the trends in the sense of joining the herd and obeying the trend; but he took history into account as data, including two facts. First, Catholicism has maintained a committment to dogmatic truth, with very few others since 1963. Second, almost all attacks on Christianity today are attacks on Catholicism. Lewis would have taken note of that as useful wartime information about the Enemy's strategy (see That Hideous Strength, and many other works). Lewis would have concluded that his 1940's confidence in Sola Scriptura as a "steering mechanism" was disproved by events since 1963. He re-evaluated his own earlier positions as new data came in. Nothing since 1963 supports Protestantism, and much points toward its unreliability. Lewis was logical; he would say when all the non-Magisterium options have been shown to be sooner or later unreliable, the Magisterium has been proven.
And may all the good people on this blog someday be as "alive" as he no doubt is today! I envision some good conversations, I hope I am there to join them.

[masuwerte]

My post was meant in jest, hence the

But really, wouldn't he have the same objections to Catholicism today, as he did 50 years ago? You'd agree that the Catholic Church hasn't changed any of its teachings. Lewis might have more of a reason to leave the C of E today, but the reasons for not becoming Catholic would still be there.

[MercyMia]

Strangely, I can almost see him across the table from Marcus Grodi on an episode of the Journey Home....

[Lion of Narnia]

Originally Posted by PTD

"If he were still alive"? Of course he's still alive, in the deepest sense. So you think a mind like his can be silent, even now? Of course he wrote a few letters (out of volumes) that expressed preference with the Protestantism of the 1940's. But he also read history, including history as it was unfolding. He was not a man who "followed" the trends in the sense of joining the herd and obeying the trend; but he took history into account as data, including two facts. First, Catholicism has maintained a committment to dogmatic truth, with very few others since 1963. Second, almost all attacks on Christianity today are attacks on Catholicism. Lewis would have taken note of that as useful wartime information about the Enemy's strategy (see That Hideous Strength, and many other works). Lewis would have concluded that his 1940's confidence in Sola Scriptura as a "steering mechanism" was disproved by events since 1963. He re-evaluated his own earlier positions as new data came in. Nothing since 1963 supports Protestantism, and much points toward its unreliability. Lewis was logical; he would say when all the non-Magisterium options have been shown to be sooner or later unreliable, the Magisterium has been proven.
And may all the good people on this blog someday be as "alive" as he no doubt is today! I envision some good conversations, I hope I am there to join them.

Essentially, that encapsulates very well my reply to GKC (thank you PTD). In regards to John Paul the Great, I think Jack Lewis would have seen how the Papacy could correct errors and bad trends--and that JP2's long reign (in spite of bullets and other hostility) was Heaven's mandate.

[GKC]

Originally Posted by Lion of Narnia

Essentially, that encapsulates very well my reply to GKC (thank you PTD). In regards to John Paul the Great, I think Jack Lewis would have seen how the Papacy could correct errors and bad trends--and that JP2's long reign (in spite of bullets and other hostility) was Heaven's mandate.

45 years of collecting and studying Lewis do not lead me to that conclusion, esp. in light of his particular stated objections.

But if he did convert (and I see nothing in his life that would had led him across the River, in spite of what Anglicanism was becoming), it would be fine with me. I collect and study Lewis and Williams, Chesterton and Belloc, Sayers,Tolkien, Lunn and Knox, same-same.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

[PTD]

Originally Posted by masuwerte

My post was meant in jest, hence the

But really, wouldn't he have the same objections to Catholicism today, as he did 50 years ago? You'd agree that the Catholic Church hasn't changed any of its teachings. Lewis might have more of a reason to leave the C of E today, but the reasons for not becoming Catholic would still be there.

The objections that I have read seem more like cautions or reservations that he had, rather than firm logical convictions. To put it another way, a man who had never been out in the dark might well regard a flashlight as "extra baggage", an unnecessary intrusion based on past tradition. But after living through the darkness or apostasy in recent decades, he might better appreciate the flashlight. Lewis might well look deeper into what kind of community provides light, and why. If the papacy seemed like "unnecessary baggage" 50 years ago, it might well appear to Lewis as necessary today, given what happened to the churches that did not have it.

[mjroth5]

Possibly. It is difficult to speculate on this topic. I believe he would have converted if he was around to see the mess the Anglican Communion is now. About doctrine: God works in his own ways and Lewis may have held doubts about his personal beliefs never publicly expressed or written in anyway.

[gurneyhalleck1]

Maybe if we resurrected Lewis we could also resurrect Tolkien along with him. Tolkien could continue to badger him into conversion for years to come. Add in the mass apathy of much of mainline protestantism, a good dose of abortion, plenty of female "priests," the crisis in the Anglican world and 'realignment,' idiots like Rowan Williams and the goobers Carey and Runcie before him, the tofu-like theology of modern Anglicanism, maniacs like Katharine Jefforts-Schiori, andaba meetings, ordaining active homosexuals, the pitiful attendance numbers in the CofE today, and the active leadership in the world of men like John Paul II and his role in the downfall of communism, the very aggressive stance against abortion and scientifically unethical things like fetal stem cell research and in vitro fertilization, and I think we'd have a chance at converting him.

GKC makes great points (as always) about Lewis and his positions on Catholicism and why he would not be Catholic (at that time) but I wonder if he saw the long-term fruit born out by Anglicanism if he'd still have those views? Lewis was more of an Anglo-Catholic and certainly Anglo-Catholics have been shoved to the side in the Communion, especially in the ACNA here in North America. The growing joke is that ACNA means "Association of Calvinists in North America" and "Anglo Catholics Needn't Attend." Evangelical Anglicanism is and has been on the rise, especially in the developing world like in Africa. Africa (most notably Nigeria) has more Anglicans than several countries combined. And Africa is almost exclusively evangelical. Would Lewis have liked that trend? Hard to say. The fruits born out by Anglicanism that I have mentioned probably would've horrified Lewis. Would he have thought, like me, that Catholicism is the only hope for battling these evil forces of immorality, corruption, and decadence, or would he have just wanted to splinter his brand of Anglicanism into a more orthodox, conservative one and decided to hold out? Hard to tell. Guys like Newman were able to connect the dots. Tolkien, I have read, was disgusted that his friend, who had drifted into atheism, had chosen the CofE instead of Catholicism. I can appreciate Tolkien's view. All that witnessing and evangelizing only to see his pal embrace Anglicanism and a divorced woman. From where Tolkien was sitting and with Tolkien's uber conservative views, that must've been earth-shattering.

It's all speculation and as other posters have said, we all tend to place our own sensibilities and passion into the men who have passed on imagining what could have been...I'm sure there are some in CAF who could like to retro-baptize the poor guy as a Mormon!

[TinaG]

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1

Maybe if we resurrected Lewis we could also resurrect Tolkien along with him. Tolkien could continue to badger him into conversion for years to come. Add in the mass apathy of much of mainline protestantism, a good dose of abortion, plenty of female "priests," the crisis in the Anglican world and 'realignment,' idiots like Rowan Williams and the goobers Carey and Runcie before him, the tofu-like theology of modern Anglicanism, maniacs like Katharine Jefforts-Schiori, andaba meetings, ordaining active homosexuals, the pitiful attendance numbers in the CofE today, and the active leadership in the world of men like John Paul II and his role in the downfall of communism, the very aggressive stance against abortion and scientifically unethical things like fetal stem cell research and in vitro fertilization, and I think we'd have a chance at converting him.

GKC makes great points (as always) about Lewis and his positions on Catholicism and why he would not be Catholic (at that time) but I wonder if he saw the long-term fruit born out by Anglicanism if he'd still have those views? Lewis was more of an Anglo-Catholic and certainly Anglo-Catholics have been shoved to the side in the Communion, especially in the ACNA here in North America. The growing joke is that ACNA means "Association of Calvinists in North America" and "Anglo Catholics Needn't Attend." Evangelical Anglicanism is and has been on the rise, especially in the developing world like in Africa. Africa (most notably Nigeria) has more Anglicans than several countries combined. And Africa is almost exclusively evangelical. Would Lewis have liked that trend? Hard to say. The fruits born out by Anglicanism that I have mentioned probably would've horrified Lewis. Would he have thought, like me, that Catholicism is the only hope for battling these evil forces of immorality, corruption, and decadence, or would he have just wanted to splinter his brand of Anglicanism into a more orthodox, conservative one and decided to hold out? Hard to tell. Guys like Newman were able to connect the dots. Tolkien, I have read, was disgusted that his friend, who had drifted into atheism, had chosen the CofE instead of Catholicism. I can appreciate Tolkien's view. All that witnessing and evangelizing only to see his pal embrace Anglicanism and a divorced woman. From where Tolkien was sitting and with Tolkien's uber conservative views, that must've been earth-shattering.

It's all speculation and as other posters have said, we all tend to place our own sensibilities and passion into the men who have passed on imagining what could have been...I'm sure there are some in CAF who could like to retro-baptize the poor guy as a Mormon!

Not at all to be offensive, but your post suggests that the speculation as to whether Tolkien, in viewing what has happened in late in the Catholic Church, would have become Anglican, is equally sustainable. I don't think he would have. I guess I am just making the point that speculation is exactly that, and we can take any figure and wish he was One of Us.

-Tina