Laws

I Seek 2 · #1 Dec 23, '09, 7:35 pm

If there were no laws, then there would be no sin right? (no disobeying God). Since most of society doesn't obey god's laws anyway, what is the purpose. What is there purpose anyway since the only reason society has laws it to prevent chaos. If we can't harm anyone in heaven(physically or otherwise) are there laws in heaven? If there are do you go to hell as a punishment. Is the punishment greater for disobeying laws in heaven than on earth? Are there laws in hell?

Big Ro · #2 Dec 23, '09, 9:10 pm

I think it's important to undertsand that the purpose of man's law and God's law are quite different. The purpose of man's law is to prvide order and liberty to the citizenery. The purpose of God's Law is to help us to understand that we are incapable of acheiving salvation without God's help. See Romans. I know that a lot of Christians and Catholics tend to believe that following God's Law (i.e., the ten commandments) is a pathway to heaven or salvation. This is a misdunderstanding. If it was possible to acheive heaven or salvation by simply following God's Law then the sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary. Scripture clearly states that we can only be reconciled to God thru Christ. It doesn't mean that we can ignore the Law. It means that we are to understand that by attempting to follow the Law, we are made fully aware of our need to accept that only by the saving grace of God's sacrfice are we truly able to gain salvation.

James S Saint · #3 Dec 23, '09, 10:59 pm

God's "laws" are the only reason you exist in the first place. Without those laws, there would be no existence at all. The bequest is that you obey those laws so that you can continue to exist and do so in harmony (required to maintain existence and know joy).

Man attempts to make laws to ensure the existence of a society/country/kingdom. If and when Man invents those laws such that they are not in compliance with God's laws, the country fails anyway. Man is not free to invent any kind of law he might like.

The laws from the prophets are laws about how to behave in society such that you and the society can be in harmony. You might say they are God's suggestion for those wanting to continue to exist.

To "sin" merely means to err. The presumption is that you prefer to exist and thus to disobey God is to err (for your own sake) and thus to "sin". Anytime a government makes a law that does not cohere to God's laws, that government has sinned and will fail or change its ways. There is no option to that. No resistance or effort to change it can ever change anything about it. "It is the way it is".

The only thing that changes is what people believe about what was there all the time. The God's laws never change. The question is only whether anyone ever really understood them.

If you still exist then you have been obeying them more than you realize. But don't push your luck.

fhansen · #4 Dec 23, '09, 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

If there were no laws, then there would be no sin right? (no disobeying God). Since most of society doesn't obey god's laws anyway, what is the purpose. What is there purpose anyway since the only reason society has laws it to prevent chaos. If we can't harm anyone in heaven(physically or otherwise) are there laws in heaven? If there are do you go to hell as a punishment. Is the punishment greater for disobeying laws in heaven than on earth? Are there laws in hell?

Anyone who's made it to heaven has fulfilled Gods Law to love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind and strength and their neighbor as themselves. Where there is love, there is no longer need for laws because "love is the fulfillment of the law".

**tonyrey** · #5 Dec 24, '09, 1:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

If there were no laws, then there would be no sin right? (no disobeying God).

You imply that laws are arbitrary commands. Do you think there could be divine laws that we should steal and kill?

Quote:

Since most of society doesn't obey god's laws anyway, what is their purpose?

It does not follow that because people disobey laws the laws are useless. They are rules which are necessary for our own well-being.. A criminal mentality is hardly a recipe for happiness! Its success is short-lived...

Quote:

What is their purpose anyway since the only reason society has laws is to prevent chaos.

Laws are based on human rights. To deny there are human rights is to reject all that makes living worthwhile...

Quote:

If we can't harm anyone in heaven (physically or otherwise) are there laws in heaven? If there are do you go to hell as a punishment. Is the punishment greater for disobeying laws in heaven than on earth? Are there laws in hell?

Moral laws don't exist in any particular time or place. They are eternal truths which we ignore at our peril...

I Seek 2 · #6 Dec 24, '09, 8:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by James S Saint

God's "laws" are the only reason you exist in the first place. Without those laws, there would be no existence at all. The bequest is that you obey those laws so that you can continue to exist and do so in harmony (required to maintain existence and know joy).

Man attempts to make laws to ensure the existence of a society/country/kingdom. If and when Man invents those laws such that they are not in compliance with God's laws, the country fails anyway. Man is not free to invent any kind of law he might like.

The laws from the prophets are laws about how to behave in society such that you and the society can be in harmony. You might say they are God's suggestion for those wanting to continue to exist.

To "sin" merely means to err. The presumption is that you prefer to exist and thus to disobey God is to err (for your own sake) and thus to "sin". Anytime a government makes a law that does not cohere to God's laws, that government has sinned and will fail or change its ways. There is no option to that. No resistance or effort to change it can ever change anything about it. "It is the way it is".

The only thing that changes is what people believe about what was there all the time. The God's laws never change. The question is only whether anyone ever really understood them.

If you still exist then you have been obeying them more than you realize. But don't push your luck.

Laws are the only reason we exist? I'm confused on this. Unless you mean it is the only reason we exist without absolute chaos. In that case they are more of societies guidelines to well being.

geometer · #7 Dec 24, '09, 1:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

If there were no laws, then there would be no sin right? (no disobeying God). Since most of society doesn't obey god's laws anyway, what is the purpose. What is there purpose anyway since the only reason society has laws it to prevent chaos. If we can't harm anyone in heaven(physically or otherwise) are there laws in heaven? If there are do you go to hell as a punishment. Is the punishment greater for disobeying laws in heaven than on earth? Are there laws in hell?

There are laws because we are limited beings. There really are things that we can do that will do injury to us. The law keeps you healthy....

James S Saint · #8 Dec 24, '09, 1:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

Laws are the only reason we exist? I'm confused on this. Unless you mean it is the only reason we exist without absolute chaos. In that case they are more of societies guidelines to well being.

It seems that you have place God in a box of a few social commandments.

I was referring to the God that creates the universe. To the universe absolute chaos = absolute nothingness.

I Seek 2 · #9 Dec 24, '09, 1:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by geometer

There are laws because we are limited beings. There really are things that we can do that will do injury to us. The law keeps you healthy....

Agreed there are things that can injure you, but as free willed beings don't we have the right to chose weather or not to do such a thing. To me the best way to learn not to do something is to do it and realize that its not a good idea, or that we need to do something different to avoid those harms, human being are certainly capable or choosing what or what not to do without the help of laws.

fhansen · #10 Dec 24, '09, 1:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

Laws are the only reason we exist? I'm confused on this. Unless you mean it is the only reason we exist without absolute chaos. In that case they are more of societies guidelines to well being.

I think another way to put it is to say that all things existing in our universe are governed by laws-laws are a necessarily inherent part of the existence of all things, inanimate as well as animate. However, when it comes to animate sentient beings possessing free wills, as with humans, laws can be overridden. While the laws that affect, limit, or govern the physical aspects or processes of our bodies, those pertaining to gravity, for example, or those governing internal chemical processes, are pretty much untouchable by us, in the moral sphere -how we comport ourselves externally- is left up to us and our behavior may or may not fall in line with general laws that pertain to human nature.

I Seek 2 · #11 Dec 24, '09, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by James S Saint

It seems that you have place God in a box of a few social commandments.

I was referring to the God that creates the universe. To the universe absolute chaos = absolute nothingness.

That is what i wanted to clarify. Also please elaborate "To the universe absolute chaos = absolute nothingness." How is chaos/nothingness possible? (If God is still there?) First define chaos.

geometer · #12 Dec 24, '09, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

Agreed there are things that can injure you, but as free willed beings don't we have the right to chose weather or not to do such a thing. To me the best way to learn not to do something is to do it and realize that its not a good idea, or that we need to do something different to avoid those harms, human being are certainly capable or choosing what or what not to do without the help of laws.

If there were no free will, the word law would not have any meaning that we could understand.

We have the law given through Moses because he asked G-d for the law. He was concerned with the health of his community.

If you can not remember the law, then you may make the same mistakes over and over.

The law should be at least memorized, don't you think?

geometer · #13 Dec 24, '09, 1:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

First define chaos.

There are many types of chaos in nature, these are studied in Chaos Theory. Even the simplest of arithmetic functions can produce chaos.

Chaos Theory

James S Saint · #14 Dec 24, '09, 1:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Seek 2

That is what i wanted to clarify. Also please elaborate "To the universe absolute chaos = absolute nothingness." How is chaos/nothingness possible? (If God is still there?) First define chaos.

Absolute chaos = 100% randomness = zero effectiveness = no affectance = no existence = nothingness.

And absolute chaos and/or randomness is NOT possible. That is why I said, IF there were no "God's laws", then there would have to be only absolute chaos = nothingness = no existence.

{and uncaused-will is a fantasy}

I Seek 2 · #15 Dec 24, '09, 2:18 pm

If there were no free will, the word law would not have any meaning that we could understand.
We wouldn't understand to begin with since we'd have no ability to

We have the law given through Moses because he asked G-d for the law. He was concerned with the health of his community.
Same point as before don't we have the free will to make those decisions, God may give a guide to live a good life( bible) but it is our choice to follow it

If you can not remember the law, then you may make the same mistakes over and over.
Again is it not our chioce?

The law should be at least memorized, don't you think?