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  #1  
Old Dec 28, '09, 8:57 am
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Default Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

I asked in another thread and then I realized that it was off-topic, sorry. Here is my question:

We all know The Ten Commandments that the Lord spoke on the mount Sinai. We also know that the Catholic Church has a different version of The Ten Commandments. The question is ..why and how?

If I would ask any Catholic person whether the Pope (or any Catholic authority) is like God, he, without any doubt, would say that no. But to be able to change what someone said (change a quote) you have to meet at least one of the following requirements:
  1. Be the original author.
  2. Have exactly the same power or authority as the author.
  3. Have a greater power of authority than the author.

The Ten Commandments are like a quote of what God said on mount Sinai. Why did the Catholic Church change something that is eternal?

It is eternal/forever:

Quote:
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
-Luke 16:17
Quote:
All your words are true;
all your righteous laws are eternal.
-Psalms 119:160
There are many more passages in the Bible that tell us not to change God's laws:

Quote:
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
-Deuteronomy 4:2
Quote:
See that you do all I [God] command you; do not add to it or take away from it.
-Deuteronomy 12:32
Quote:
Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
-Proverbs 30:5-6
I am not accusing but rather demanding an explanation: how and why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?
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  #2  
Old Dec 28, '09, 9:14 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

We didn't change them.
Short answer.

Really, we didn't. The Protestants (you know, the ones who came later in historical time than Catholics) were the ones who changed the numbering of the commandments. Ask them why, I do not know.

However, Protestants and Catholics, despite the difference in whether a commandment is number 7 or 8, say, have the very same 10 commandments. (Yes, we include in our first commandment the 'graven images' that Protestants pulled out and made #2).

Perhaps you were not aware that the original of the Hebrew books did not contain specific chapter and verse format as we use them today?

IOW, it is just as 'licit' for the Catholics to 'number' the commandments as they have done (for indeed, all is contained therein). . .and in fact, the Catholic 10 commandments came, as I said, 'first', before the Protestant ones. . .as it is for the Protestants to 'number' as they do. Since the original book did not specifically detail out "Number 1, number 2" and indeed as our Jewish friends will tell you, the '10' actually contain FOURTEEN commandments if 'separately' viewed. . .we did not 'change' anything.

I'm delighted to be able to inform you that Catholics did not 'change' anything in the Good Book. Now we can move on to any other topic you might like to address.
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  #3  
Old Dec 28, '09, 9:17 am
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Can I ask you specifically what we changed, or added, or deleted?

I wasn't aware that the Catholic Church ever changed the 10 commandments.
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  #4  
Old Dec 28, '09, 9:20 am
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian B View Post
I am not accusing but rather demanding an explanation: how and why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?
... not accusing, but rather demanding..? Is there a difference? It sounds like you ARE accusing and then demanding.
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  #5  
Old Dec 28, '09, 9:29 am
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

I'm sure you know that in the original text of the Scriptures, there are no chapter or verse numbers--these were not added until well into the Middle Ages. The commandents as given in Exodus and Numbers, therefore, are not numbered in the original text.

If you broke out all the actual imperatives found in these passages (everything that says "do this" or "don't do that"), you can get as many as fourteen different commandments. So there is nothing "biblical" about the numbering of the commandents -- the numbering scheme was something devised by tradition, first Jewish then Christian. Even the Jewish rabbis will tell you the numbering is quite arbitrary (as is the fact that the Jews celebrate the Sabbath on what we call Saturday). It simply arose out of their tradition.

The Jewish tradition numbered them in a certain way, and the Christian tradition (i.e. the Catholic Church, as it is undeniably the Church that, historically speaking, was the original Christian Church) numbered them a different way. They did this not because of some nefarious plan to change the Scriptures or introduce idol worship (as the more ignorant and paranoid Protestant fundamentalists like to charge), but because Christians have a different traditional emphasis from Jews and it was an easier, as a catechetical formula, to memorize (the Church, BTW, has always taught strongly against idolatry to this present day. Check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church).

The Protestants, when they came along 1600 years later, adopted the Jewish formulation. There are several reasons they give for this, but the primary reason was, again, catechetical.

The real question is this: whose rendering of the Ten Commandments should Christians follow: [1] the Jewish tradition, placing us under the authority of the rabbis which the early Church rejected; [2] the decision of a bunch of 16th century johnny-come-latelys who detached themselves from historic Christianity and relied on their own traditions of men; or [3] the historical Christian (i.e. Catholic) Sacred Tradition passed down from the time of the Apostles to this present day?

This article may of further help.
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  #6  
Old Dec 28, '09, 9:54 am
Belloc Fan Belloc Fan is offline
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian B View Post
I am not accusing but rather demanding an explanation: how and why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?
We believe in the exact same Commandments as you. We just number them differently. They're listed twice in the Old Testament, and they're grouped slightly differently between the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Com...d_in_Exodus_20
This shows how Jews, Protestants (besides Lutherans), Eastern Orthodox, and Catholics (and Lutherans) each number them differently. We believe the same thing, we just have different numbering.

Any numbering system is - strictly speaking - "adding" to the Bible, because there aren't numbers in the Bible. But besides that, the Catholic numbering system predates Protestantism. So who's adding? And why does it matter?
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  #7  
Old Dec 28, '09, 10:45 am
Cecilcatholic Cecilcatholic is offline
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

I'm so glad you are here to respond with grace, dignity and patience. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantum ergo View Post
We didn't change them.
Short answer.

Really, we didn't. The Protestants (you know, the ones who came later in historical time than Catholics) were the ones who changed the numbering of the commandments. Ask them why, I do not know.

However, Protestants and Catholics, despite the difference in whether a commandment is number 7 or 8, say, have the very same 10 commandments. (Yes, we include in our first commandment the 'graven images' that Protestants pulled out and made #2).

Perhaps you were not aware that the original of the Hebrew books did not contain specific chapter and verse format as we use them today?

IOW, it is just as 'licit' for the Catholics to 'number' the commandments as they have done (for indeed, all is contained therein). . .and in fact, the Catholic 10 commandments came, as I said, 'first', before the Protestant ones. . .as it is for the Protestants to 'number' as they do. Since the original book did not specifically detail out "Number 1, number 2" and indeed as our Jewish friends will tell you, the '10' actually contain FOURTEEN commandments if 'separately' viewed. . .we did not 'change' anything.

I'm delighted to be able to inform you that Catholics did not 'change' anything in the Good Book. Now we can move on to any other topic you might like to address.
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  #8  
Old Dec 28, '09, 11:02 am
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian B View Post
how and why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?


Here is a fantastic chart showing the differences. You can see for yourself the differences and why.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/ten_commandments.htm

Here is a chart comparing the difference between the Jewish and Catholic (including all orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran) Ten Commandments.

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bibl...mmandments.htm


Thanks for the question!! I learned something today!
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Last edited by graceandglory; Dec 28, '09 at 11:15 am.
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  #9  
Old Dec 28, '09, 12:13 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Who was first or second is irrelevant. I learned something today as well. Thank you for your answers.

Now I have another question. You said that the commandments could be broke up in 14. Could you number them? (So I can be sure)

I also have another doubt, which I will post here, instead of making another thread.

It is in regard of the Sabbath day, but I will start with some passages:

Quote:
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
-Galatians 3:15
Quote:
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
-Hebrews 9:16-17

[note: in the New International version, it says covenant instead of testament]
So, a covenant (or testament) can be changed only as long as the person lives. Now that Jesus died, the new covenant cannot be changed. Jesus, during his lifetime did not change the Sabbath day. Only Jesus, as long as He remained alive (I mean, before the crucifixion) could change it, but now, that He died (and came back to life, but the fact that He died remains), it cannot be changed. Jesus did not change the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday during His life on Earth, so it is not part of the New Testament. So the question is: how could the Catholic Church change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday since Jesus, the Author of the New Testament, died, and the covenant,according to the Bible, cannot be changed? How can someone, that is not the testator, change the testament, even after it has been confirmed?
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Old Dec 28, '09, 12:28 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian B View Post
Who was first or second is irrelevant. I learned something today as well. Thank you for your answers.

Now I have another question. You said that the commandments could be broke up in 14. Could you number them? (So I can be sure)

I also have another doubt, which I will post here, instead of making another thread.

It is in regard of the Sabbath day, but I will start with some passages:





So, a covenant (or testament) can be changed only as long as the person lives. Now that Jesus died, the new covenant cannot be changed. Jesus, during his lifetime did not change the Sabbath day. Only Jesus, as long as He remained alive (I mean, before the crucifixion) could change it, but now, that He died (and came back to life, but the fact that He died remains), it cannot be changed. Jesus did not change the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday during His life on Earth, so it is not part of the New Testament. So the question is: how could the Catholic Church change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday since Jesus, the Author of the New Testament, died, and the covenant,according to the Bible, cannot be changed? How can someone, that is not the testator, change the testament, even after it has been confirmed?
Is the Covenant integral to the celebration of the Sabbath on a Saturday or Sunday. Jesus' death fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant which stipulated Sunday.

Secondly, Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to change things. We saw this in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, where the 4 Noahide stipulations were added unto the Gentiles. In Galatians, I believe, we see that these stipulations are lifted, or at least some of them are.

But, in thinking on your question, are you saying that we should have kept the entire Mosaic Covenant rules, because I don't see Jesus lifting the Circumcision requirement.
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  #11  
Old Dec 28, '09, 12:34 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

The Church didn't change the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Where did you get that idea? We go to church on Sunday. But we never said that the sabbath wasn't on Saturday.
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Old Dec 28, '09, 12:52 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

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Originally Posted by 06convert View Post
The Church didn't change the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Where did you get that idea? We go to church on Sunday. But we never said that the sabbath wasn't on Saturday.
But we keep Sunday's holy, not Saturdays.

With Jesus' Resurrection coming on a Sunday, the Church quickly adopted Sunday as Her holy day, not the Sabbath.
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Old Dec 28, '09, 1:01 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
But we keep Sunday's holy, not Saturdays.

With Jesus' Resurrection coming on a Sunday, the Church quickly adopted Sunday as Her holy day, not the Sabbath.
You are correct. It's just a bit misleading to say we changed the sabbath.
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Old Dec 28, '09, 1:20 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian B View Post

It is in regard of the Sabbath day, but I will start with some passages:
This thread on the Sabbath is happening right now.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=408592
You might want to read it and bring your questions there. I just posted information on the Sabbath. That is what I am learning about today.
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Old Dec 28, '09, 1:25 pm
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Default Re: Why did the Catholic Church change The Ten Commandments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristian B View Post
Who was first or second is irrelevant.
Not true, since it at least shows what the earliest Christians believed, and that later numbering of the Commandments, from a Christian perspective, is shown to be an unbiblical innovation, 1600 years removed. It can't be arbitrarily dismissed as 'irrelevant' unless it is proved (or at least intelligently argued to be) to be irrelevant.

Quote:
Now I have another question. You said that the commandments could be broke up in 14. Could you number them? (So I can be sure)
Here is one numbering scheme, and I've read elsewhere that there are other possible enumerations. This is from the Exodus 20 version:

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

1 Do not have any other gods before me.

2 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

3 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

4 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

5 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

6. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

7. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

8. You shall not murder.

9. You shall not commit adultery.

10 You shall not steal.

11 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

12 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house;

13. you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,

14. [you shall not covet his] male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
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