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  #241  
Old Feb 1, '10, 9:48 am
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Vico Vico is online now
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Well, there's the rub.

Here we have, let us say, a hypothetical situation wherein Latin Catholics who know the difference and enough canon law do not believe in the Papal dogmas of 1870AD. They are excommunicated latae sententiae, is that not so?

...
The hypothetical Latin Catholics are different than the Orthodox and Polish National Catholics, due to their lack of invincible ignorance. (You said that the Catholics understand the canons, so they are not invincibly ignorant, they know law, circumstance, and penalty.)

There are rules for determining excommunication (full knowledge or penalty, understanding, obstinancy, etc.) so it would be inaccurate to generalize and say they are excommunicated latae sententiae.
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  #242  
Old Feb 1, '10, 11:18 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

I have been RC all of my life. I have never quite understood this whole thing. But Now I think I have it. Thanks to alot of you, and my friend Mickey I THINK I have it figured out.

I am A Roman Catholic. But I could also be considered a part of the Holy Orthodox Church Correct. From what I am seeing there are Orthodox Church's that are indeed in Communion with Rome which means we are one. But there are other Orthodox Church's that are not in communion with Rome so we are not completely one. Do I got it right?

But either way we do ALL agree with the Teachings of the Catholic Church correct? It is just certain disciplines that we disagree on? DO I got it once and for all?
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  #243  
Old Feb 1, '10, 12:44 pm
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
I have been RC all of my life. I have never quite understood this whole thing. But Now I think I have it. Thanks to alot of you, and my friend Mickey I THINK I have it figured out.

I am A Roman Catholic. But I could also be considered a part of the Holy Orthodox Church Correct. From what I am seeing there are Orthodox Church's that are indeed in Communion with Rome which means we are one. But there are other Orthodox Church's that are not in communion with Rome so we are not completely one. Do I got it right?

But either way we do ALL agree with the Teachings of the Catholic Church correct? It is just certain disciplines that we disagree on? DO I got it once and for all?
No, you are not a member of the Orthodox Church. There is agreement between Catholic and Orthodox on faith expressed by the first seven Ecumenical Councils, but not on later dogmas.

Those that are Catholic hold the same beliefs and that includes that the Bishop of Rome, as Vicar of Christ, has supreme and universal power over the whole Church.

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 particular Churches of which the Latin Church is the largest, and the one most people think of as Roman Catholic. The Orthodox Church is not one of the 23 particular Churches. Many of the particular Churches were formed from former members of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East, that became Catholic, between 1552 and 1930.

Some people have been calling themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome", for personal or political reasons, but it is not an official designation for a Church.

Year of being a particular Catholic Church.
33 Latin, Italo-Albanian (1595 bishop), Maronite (452)
1552 Chaldean
1595 Belorussian, Ukrainian
1599 Syro-Malabar
1611 Croatian (Krizevci)
1628 Albanian
1646 Slovak, Hungarian, Ruthenian
1697 Romanian
1724 Melkite
1741 Coptic (Egyptian)
1742 Armenian
1781 Syrian
1846 Ethiopian-Eritrean
1861 Bulgarian
1905 Russian
1918 Macedonian
1929 Greek
1930 Syro-Malankara
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  #244  
Old Feb 1, '10, 12:47 pm
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
No, you are not a member of the Orthodox Church. There is agreement between Catholic and Orthodox on faith expressed by the first seven Ecumenical Councils, but not on later dogmas.

Those that are Catholic hold the same beliefs and that includes that the Bishop of Rome, as Vicar of Christ, has supreme and universal power over the whole Church.

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 particular Churches of which the Latin Church is the largest, and the one most people think of as Roman Catholic. The Orthodox Church is not one of the 23 particular Churches. Many of the particular Churches were formed from former members of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East, that became Catholic, between 1552 and 1930.

Some people have been calling themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome", for personal or political reasons, but it is not an official designation for a Church.

Year of being a particular Catholic Church.
33 Latin, Italo-Albanian, Maronite
1552 Chaldean
1595 Belorussian, Ukrainian
1599 Syro-Malabar
1611 Croatian (Krizevci)
1628 Albanian
1646 Slovak, Hungarian, Ruthenian
1697 Romanian
1724 Melkite
1741 Coptic (Egyptian)
1742 Armenian
1781 Syrian
1846 Ethiopian-Eritrean
1861 Bulgarian
1905 Russian
1918 Macedonian
1929 Greek
1930 Syro-Malankara
Okay then let me get this clear. I am Roman Catholic that means I am not part of the Orthodox faith? They are not part of the Catholic Faith correct?

Everytime I think I get it right someones tells me I got it wrong
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  #245  
Old Feb 1, '10, 12:55 pm
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Okay then let me get this clear. I am Roman Catholic that means I am not part of the Orthodox faith? They are not part of the Catholic Faith correct?

Everytime I think I get it right someones tells me I got it wrong
Try substituting the word "Church" for "Faith" and it comes out just about right. Roman Catholics are of the orthodox (lower case "o") faith. Eastern Orthodox similarly are catholic (lower case "c").
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  #246  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:04 pm
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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Originally Posted by malphono View Post
Try substituting the word "Church" for "Faith" and it comes out just about right. Roman Catholics are of the orthodox (lower case "o") faith. Eastern Orthodox similarly are catholic (lower case "c").
But doesn't Orthodox and Catholic mean the same thing

Okay I think I am getting it. The Orthodox are just not in communion with Rome right? I guess none of them are right?
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  #247  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:09 pm
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Vico Vico is online now
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Okay then let me get this clear. I am Roman Catholic that means I am not part of the Orthodox faith? They are not part of the Catholic Faith correct?

Everytime I think I get it right someones tells me I got it wrong
The Orthodox are not part of the Roman Catholic faith.

Orthodox faith is summarized by the first seven ecumenical councils. Also in works by Metropolitan Petro Mohyla of Kyiv Halych and all Rus, which was approved, with amendments, by the Eastern patriarchs in 1643, and by the confession of Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem, approved by the synod of 1672.

http://catholicity.elcore.net/Confes...Dositheus.html
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  #248  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:12 pm
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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Originally Posted by Vico View Post
The Orthodox are not part of the Roman Catholic faith.

Orthodox faith is summarized by the first seven ecumenical councils. Also in works by Metropolitan Petro Mohyla of Kyiv Halych and all Rus, which was approved, with amendments, by the Eastern patriarchs in 1643, and by the confession of Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem, approved by the synod of 1672.

http://catholicity.elcore.net/Confes...Dositheus.html
Okay I think I got it. But it mostly has to do with the Pope right? They don't see him as the boss lets say. Right.
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  #249  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:15 pm
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
No, you are not a member of the Orthodox Church. There is agreement between Catholic and Orthodox on faith expressed by the first seven Ecumenical Councils, but not on later dogmas.

Those that are Catholic hold the same beliefs and that includes that the Bishop of Rome, as Vicar of Christ, has supreme and universal power over the whole Church.

The Catholic Church is made up of 23 particular Churches of which the Latin Church is the largest, and the one most people think of as Roman Catholic. The Orthodox Church is not one of the 23 particular Churches. Many of the particular Churches were formed from former members of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East, that became Catholic, between 1552 and 1930.

Some people have been calling themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome", for personal or political reasons, but it is not an official designation for a Church.

Year of being a particular Catholic Church.
33 Latin, Italo-Albanian (1595 bishop), Maronite (452)
1552 Chaldean
1595 Belorussian, Ukrainian
1599 Syro-Malabar
1611 Croatian (Krizevci)
1628 Albanian
1646 Slovak, Hungarian, Ruthenian
1697 Romanian
1724 Melkite
1741 Coptic (Egyptian)
1742 Armenian
1781 Syrian
1846 Ethiopian-Eritrean
1861 Bulgarian
1905 Russian
1918 Macedonian
1929 Greek
1930 Syro-Malankara
Okay yes I am seeing now. Like Purgatory etc.
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  #250  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:25 pm
Diak Diak is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Year of being a particular Catholic Church.
33 Latin, Italo-Albanian (1595 bishop), Maronite (452)
1552 Chaldean
1595 Belorussian, Ukrainian
1599 Syro-Malabar
1611 Croatian (Krizevci)
1628 Albanian
1646 Slovak, Hungarian, Ruthenian
1697 Romanian
1724 Melkite
1741 Coptic (Egyptian)
1742 Armenian
1781 Syrian
1846 Ethiopian-Eritrean
1861 Bulgarian
1905 Russian
1918 Macedonian
1929 Greek
1930 Syro-Malankara
This is misleading. Every Church of Apostolic origin began in 33 A.D.. When a formal relationship was established with Rome is another thing entirely.
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  #251  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:59 pm
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Vico Vico is online now
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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Originally Posted by Diak View Post
This is misleading. Every Church of Apostolic origin began in 33 A.D.. When a formal relationship was established with Rome is another thing entirely.
That is why I carefully titled it "Year of being a particular Catholic Church".
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  #252  
Old Feb 1, '10, 2:53 pm
Diak Diak is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
That is why I carefully titled it "Year of being a particular Catholic Church".
Even that term runs into some difficulties as some Churches didn't explicitly lose communion but through political circumstances were estranged or lost contact, not through a willful schism or any ecclesiological malfeasance.

"Year a particular Church formally entered into a union with Rome" is much more precise, since none can deny that any of these particular Churches date to 33 A.D. in their origin nor can deny their catholicity (c.f. Unitatis Redintegratio).

Since Rome came after Antioch, I would rethink the date of Rome, actually. Jerusalem would sensibly be first.
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  #253  
Old Feb 1, '10, 2:57 pm
sidbrown sidbrown is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
Dogma is not something negotiable. .
But it can be "developed " to the point where it means something different from what it appears to be now. Take for example the teaching that a Jew cannot be saved unless he converts. This teaching has been developed to the extent that it is now taught that a Jew can be saved.
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  #254  
Old Feb 1, '10, 3:01 pm
sidbrown sidbrown is offline
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Default Re: Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Well, there's the rub.

Here we have, let us say, a hypothetical situation wherein Latin Catholics who know the difference and enough canon law do not believe in the Papal dogmas of 1870AD. They are excommunicated latae sententiae, is that not so?

While at the same time their neighbors who are Orthodox and do not believe in the Papal dogmas (if otherwise disposed) can present themselves for communion in the very same parish. Up the street live an Old Catholic family belonging to the Polish National Catholic church who also do not believe in the Papal dogmas, and they can attend and receive. This is OK as per the Catholic church.

And upon seeing this, some Catholics who do not believe in the Papal dogmas and otherwise qualify to be excommunicated latae sententiae are saying to themselves "I don't feel that I can call myself a Catholic, I think I will declare myself Orthodox, in communion with Rome and then I can receive the sacraments with a clean conscience without believing in these difficult dogmas". This, even though they do not have an Orthodox bishop over them, do not confess to an Orthodox priest and are not otherwise in good standing with an Orthodox diocese or church.

Likewise, some of the area Orthodox will see this warm welcome and the convenient Catholic parish down the street which they would like to attend but absolutely do not believe in the Papal dogmas and declare "I think I will declare myself Orthodox, in communion with Rome and then I can receive the sacraments with a clean conscience".
This seems to be a pretty big contradiction that you have pointed out. My guess is that the solution lies in the RC concept of development of dogma. Namely, that the universal jurisdiction which was promulgated and taught referred to a different situation than would exist if the Orthodox are united to the Church and so the dogma will have to be developed to align with the new situation. I think this is credible, becasue previously it was taught that a Jew cannot be saved, unless he converts, whereas now, it is not taught so. At leas that is my feeling on this issue, so it is not official in any sense.
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  #255  
Old Feb 1, '10, 3:04 pm
sidbrown sidbrown is offline
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Originally Posted by Vico View Post
Those that are Catholic hold the same beliefs and that includes that the Bishop of Rome, as Vicar of Christ, has supreme and universal power over the whole Church.
I don;t think that this is true, becsue there are millions of Catholic lay people and clergy who do not go along with the teaching on artificial birth control. What percentage of married people in the USA today do not use artificial birth control?
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