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  #1  
Old Jan 1, '10, 3:52 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

I know many love the works of Fr. Raymond Brown S.S. but since his doctrine is just rehashed protestantism, doesn't it make more sense to study Catholic Doctrine as opposed to the contradictory theories of a man who has exceeded the epistomological certitude levels of his science.
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  #2  
Old Jan 1, '10, 7:45 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

I made the mistake of buying the "new jerome biblical commentary."

It looks scholarly, but it has Brown's biases overlaid in it. He even says in there someplace that no one should be reading the NJBC in a fundamentalist way (" hey, it says here that....").

He predicted that if someone were to come along later and revise this first revision of the JBC, they would probably throw out a lot of what it says there. I didn't keep track of where he says that in NJBC, but this is what he says.

I say throw it out now, and save yourself some trouble. Truthfully, I have gotten some interesting information from the NJBC -- it's not all bad. Most recently, I worked through the sections on St. Paul -- and these are quite scholarly.

Brown tipped his hand in a book that has the title something like "modern issues related to the Bible" in which he showed how he can play games with the idea of a female priesthood. He gave the arguments for, against, and then sort of middle of the road on the issue. So, he was showing how he could play with scripture and mislead people.

Many people try to communicate with Robert Sungenis, who is a busy fellow. I once exchanged a thought on Brown that amused Robert. I said that a donkey in a tuxedo is still a donkey, referring to Brown. He got a kick out of that.
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  #3  
Old Jan 1, '10, 7:46 pm
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NHInsider NHInsider is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

We don't follow Biblical scholars, we follow Jesus. Nevertheless, I fail to see the reason for attacking a man who's been dead for 10 years, who was a respected scholar and a member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission as well as a priest and religious.

Scholarly theories come and go. Some "stick" and become the basis of further study. Some fade away. Others join their fellows on the shelf, with adherants and opponents. Those who want to challenge Raymond Brown's scholarly work will continue to do so in academic forums, and their work will become part of the ongoing discussion. Outside of academia, those who find his views threatening are under no obligation to read them or agree with them.

If neither his superiors nor the Vatican believed it necessary to discipline Fr. Brown during his career, I don't know why anyone feels it's appropriate to do so now.
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Old Jan 1, '10, 11:02 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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Originally Posted by NHInsider View Post
We don't follow Biblical scholars, we follow Jesus. Nevertheless, I fail to see the reason for attacking a man who's been dead for 10 years, who was a respected scholar and a member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission as well as a priest and religious.

Scholarly theories come and go. Some "stick" and become the basis of further study. Some fade away. Others join their fellows on the shelf, with adherants and opponents. Those who want to challenge Raymond Brown's scholarly work will continue to do so in academic forums, and their work will become part of the ongoing discussion. Outside of academia, those who find his views threatening are under no obligation to read them or agree with them.

If neither his superiors nor the Vatican believed it necessary to discipline Fr. Brown during his career, I don't know why anyone feels it's appropriate to do so now.
I agree. Especially as Fr. Brown was named to the Pontifical Biblical Commission.

Hey, if someone doesn't like his work, ok, that's fine, but let's not pretend that's more than one's personal opinion.
  #5  
Old Jan 1, '10, 11:17 pm
RobbyS RobbyS is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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Originally Posted by diggerdomer View Post
I agree. Especially as Fr. Brown was named to the Pontifical Biblical Commission.

Hey, if someone doesn't like his work, ok, that's fine, but let's not pretend that's more than one's personal opinion.
Brown should be taken as one takes any specialist, as a man whose opinions he sometimes confuses with fact. In any case, he shared with Mr. liberal scholars certain assumptions. He accepted, for instance, what cannot be proved, which is the priority of Mark, and the late dating of the Gospels. He was quite dismissive of Bishop Robinson's redating in a way that did not respect that Anglican --and Liberal--Bishop's hypothesis that the liberal scholars' consensus was not necessarily true. Above all, it is important to remember how much of Biblical scholarship is speculative.
  #6  
Old Jan 1, '10, 11:27 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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Brown should be taken as one takes any specialist, as a man whose opinions he sometimes confuses with fact. In any case, he shared with Mr. liberal scholars certain assumptions. He accepted, for instance, what cannot be proved, which is the priority of Mark, and the late dating of the Gospels. He was quite dismissive of Bishop Robinson's redating in a way that did not respect that Anglican --and Liberal--Bishop's hypothesis that the liberal scholars' consensus was not necessarily true. Above all, it is important to remember how much of Biblical scholarship is speculative.
The priority of Mark is accepted by most Catholic scholars (ordained and lay). Regardless, it's not essential to the faith, so whether Fr. Brown supported it or not has no bearing on orthodoxy.
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Old Jan 3, '10, 9:59 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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I fail to see the reason for attacking a man who's been dead for 10 years, who was a respected scholar and a member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission as well as a priest and religious.

If neither his superiors nor the Vatican believed it necessary to discipline Fr. Brown during his career, I don't know why anyone feels it's appropriate to do so now.
The New Testament teaches us to avoid bad teachers. People who don't know should be told the truth and the difference.

The fact that he is dead does not canonize his writings, which are still in print. You can split hairs all you want, there is still a raging division in the United States in the Catholic Church, a scandal which has embarrassed the U.S. Church, and a lot of this has to be traced to the liberalism of thinking that happened due in part to people like Brown.

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have both waged a spiritual battle in the Church against relativism and secularization and the denial of scriptural truths.

Both of these Popes have been severely humiliated by misbehavior of clerics who one way or the other had some pretty strange ideas about their mission and authority.

The Pontifical Biblical Commission was once considered the final authority on scripture but that position was overreaching and their stature was knocked down to the advisory role that it is today.
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  #8  
Old Jan 4, '10, 4:42 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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Originally Posted by NHInsider View Post
We don't follow Biblical scholars, we follow Jesus. Nevertheless, I fail to see the reason for attacking a man who's been dead for 10 years, who was a respected scholar and a member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission as well as a priest and religious.

Scholarly theories come and go. Some "stick" and become the basis of further study. Some fade away. Others join their fellows on the shelf, with adherants and opponents. Those who want to challenge Raymond Brown's scholarly work will continue to do so in academic forums, and their work will become part of the ongoing discussion. Outside of academia, those who find his views threatening are under no obligation to read them or agree with them.

If neither his superiors nor the Vatican believed it necessary to discipline Fr. Brown during his career, I don't know why anyone feels it's appropriate to do so now.
No one is trying to discipline Brown. I think Catholics dug up -- oh, who was that English reformer who trumpeted private interpretation of scripture? -- maybe John Wyclif. If memory serves me right, somebody dug up his bones 40 years after his death and burned them. You wouldn't get away with anything like that today, of course, but it has been done.

Back to Brown: Now, in his book of the title something like "101 questions and answers about the Bible" he expresses the opinion rather strongly that all the infancy narratives of the gospel are myths, hoaxes, frauds, whatever you want to call them.

Now, let's see those hands out there: How many Catholics went to Church and heard a homily based on Brown and told their people once and for all to knock off all this manger stuff and magi stuff and the like? Well, that's what Brown said.

One cannot be neutral about Raymond Brown and the Church is certainly not.
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  #9  
Old Jan 4, '10, 7:14 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

I think that members of Vatican Commissions are chosen for their academic reputation. I don't think being chosen conveys any approval of their views.
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  #10  
Old Jan 4, '10, 7:45 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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I think that members of Vatican Commissions are chosen for their academic reputation. I don't think being chosen conveys any approval of their views.
Seriously, and charitably, what is the point of that?

What did he accomplish on the PBC? Does anybody know enough about that organization to judge what they are doing?
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  #11  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:25 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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I think that members of Vatican Commissions are chosen for their academic reputation. I don't think being chosen conveys any approval of their views.
So the Vatican would appoint someone to a Vatican Commission who expresses views the Vatican disagrees with? Really? I find that hard to believe. No...impossible...not hard.
  #12  
Old Jan 5, '10, 1:13 pm
juliamajor juliamajor is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

As far as I know he was never anathamized or censured.I'veread and will continue to read him Reading a broad spectrum of biblical scholarship can help you separate the wheat from the chaff.Painting the man with a broad brush as some kind of anti-christ is not a great idea-plenty of his scholarship was sound and doctrinal.Don't throw the baby out with the bath water but try to discern where he slipped and when he is on solid ground.
  #13  
Old Jan 5, '10, 1:19 pm
BenBornAgain BenBornAgain is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

Well it is easy to make the case that someone can be Cardinal and teach liberal doctrines (does the name Martini ring a bell?), So once again thank God for the Magisterium wich protect us for the "authoritative" views of these specialists of the Bible who dismiss the very teaching of the Church...
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Old Jan 5, '10, 5:02 pm
Alan55 Alan55 is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

Since no one else is willing, let me offer a defense of the now deceased Fr. Raymond Brown, S.S., who was arguably the finest New Testament scholar in the English language during the latter half of the 20th century and certainly the foremost commentator on John's gospel.

Many of his books received a Nihil obstat and Imprimatur, acknowledging that, in the opinion of the diocese reviewing such books, they contain nothing damaging to Catholic faith and morals. Pope Benedict XVI (prior to his elevation to the papacy), was complimentary of Brown and his scholarship, and has been quoted as saying he "would be very happy if we had many exegetes like Father Brown".

Of course, Fr. Brown's scholarship was criticized by traditionalists who objected that Brown, one of the first Catholic bible scholars to apply the historical-critical method to New Testament study, cast doubt on the historical accuracy of various aspects of the Catholic faith.

I've read most of Fr. Brown's books which stand out to me for their scholarly rigor, clarity and pastoral sensitivity. He is a credit to the Catholic faith, which he served faithfully as a priest and scholar.
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Old Jan 5, '10, 6:06 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: Don't Follow Raymond Brown Follow Catholic Doctrine

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Well it is easy to make the case that someone can be Cardinal and teach liberal doctrines (does the name Martini ring a bell?), So once again thank God for the Magisterium wich protect us for the "authoritative" views of these specialists of the Bible who dismiss the very teaching of the Church...
Are you speaking of the same Magisterium that appointed Fr. Brown to the Pontifical Biblical Commission?
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