Catholic FAQ


We were unable to reach our goal for the summer but we have reached 98%
Please consider donating if you can and keep us in your prayers.


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jan 4, '10, 9:11 am
Ultima Ratio Ultima Ratio is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: April 26, 2009
Posts: 549
Religion: Catholic
Default Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Here is a recent sermon from AudioSancto.org:

Salvation is Only in the Catholic Church

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20...ic-Church.html
  #2  
Old Jan 4, '10, 9:26 am
Neil_Anthony Neil_Anthony is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 4,876
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Moses never joined the Catholic Church while on earth, are you saying Moses is in hell?

Or are you saying that starting at the moment of the Crucifixion, that every devout Jew who died without having heard of Christ is now in hell?

Or would you set the turning point at some other event, like the resurrection or pentecost? No matter where you set it, you'll be condemning holy people who never heard of Christ to hell.

Last edited by Neil_Anthony; Jan 4, '10 at 9:41 am.
  #3  
Old Jan 4, '10, 9:29 am
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,144
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

I am trying to see where he is different that Fr. Feeney who was excommunicated. I also take issue with him calling everyone that does not see this dogma as he does a heretic and outside the Church (also something that runs counter to Church teaching). Since the Holy Father does not see things his way if he too is a heretic.

Finally, I wonder where he gets the idea that all worship outside of the Catholic Church is nonsense that means nothing. I have never seen that in Church teaching. Perhaps God told him personally.

I would recommend he be taught by the Church before he teaches.
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
  #4  
Old Jan 4, '10, 9:36 am
FAB FAB is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2007
Posts: 2,068
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio View Post
Here is a recent sermon from AudioSancto.org:

Salvation is Only in the Catholic Church

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20...ic-Church.html
Within the fiest two minutes, who ever is the preacher did an eisegesis of the Gospel which is niether Catholic teaching of Doctrine. I stopped there, if the begining is taht far off, I'm certain the rest is no better.

Peace,
FAB
  #5  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:19 am
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
Forum Elder
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: November 6, 2004
Posts: 17,357
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
Finally, I wonder where he gets the idea that all worship outside of the Catholic Church is nonsense that means nothing. I have never seen that in Church teaching. Perhaps God told him personally.
Actually, pnewton, this was very common before Vatican II when I grew up. My father was Protestant and as a child, my brother and sister and myself, were terrified when he got sick that he would die and go to hell. One of the best things to come out of Vatican II was a cessation of this stark and dire belief.

A belief that went along with this was that Catholics were forbidden to attend Protestant services. As late as 1967 when my grandmother died, we had to ask permission of our parish priest to attend her services at her church.

My grandfather was a Catholic and he married my Protestant and divorced grandmother sometime in the 1910s. He was excommunicated from the Church and from his family. The only way I got to know the Catholic side of my father's family was because my great-aunt on my mother's side was friends with my great-aunt on my father's side. We saw them once a year near All Saint's Day when families spent time whitewashing family graves and putting out flowers. My aunt would take the three of us across the cemetery to visit.

I am not making this up. There was no salvation outside the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II and I give thanks to God that we no longer have this belief.
__________________
Homo proponit sed Deus disponit.
  #6  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:30 am
Shin Shin is offline
Senior Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 6,207
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Actually it is declared dogma of the Church, in those words.

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

So we should defend it in those words. Support it. Love it.

A Catholic is someone who loves the Church, and who listens to the Holy Spirit when the Spirit declares dogmas. And when He does so, we listen and speak them in the same language and words the Holy Spirit uses.

There are possibilties such as baptism of desire, perfect love of God. And so forth.

But effectively, through these, you belong, you are inside, not out before death.
  #7  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:32 am
NeelyAnn NeelyAnn is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 28, 2006
Posts: 471
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Are you saying that Vatican II changed a definitive teaching of the Church? This was taught by the Popes and Fathers of the Church for 19 centuries. Was this all of a sudden changed at Vatican II? Do you honestly believe that? If so, what other Dogmas of the Church do you also believe are dispensible and wil be done away with in the future? The Trinity? The Divinity of Jesus? In your opinion, is it wrong for a Caholic today, to believe what was taught for the 19 centuries prior to Vatican II?

Also, as an fyi - the priest whose sermons are posted on Audio Sancto are ALL priest of good standing within the Catholic Church and have FULL faculties. None of the priest on Audio Sancto are considered to be outside the Church, or in an irregular status.
  #8  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:43 am
MIKE46 MIKE46 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 106
Religion: ROMAN CATHOLIC
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherhrolf View Post
Actually, pnewton, this was very common before Vatican II when I grew up. My father was Protestant and as a child, my brother and sister and myself, were terrified when he got sick that he would die and go to hell. One of the best things to come out of Vatican II was a cessation of this stark and dire belief.

A belief that went along with this was that Catholics were forbidden to attend Protestant services. As late as 1967 when my grandmother died, we had to ask permission of our parish priest to attend her services at her church.

My grandfather was a Catholic and he married my Protestant and divorced grandmother sometime in the 1910s. He was excommunicated from the Church and from his family. The only way I got to know the Catholic side of my father's family was because my great-aunt on my mother's side was friends with my great-aunt on my father's side. We saw them once a year near All Saint's Day when families spent time whitewashing family graves and putting out flowers. My aunt would take the three of us across the cemetery to visit.

I am not making this up. There was no salvation outside the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II and I give thanks to God that we no longer have this belief.
Sounds like what I was taught as well back in the days of the early to mid fifties. We were told point blank never to even set foot in a Church of another faith, Christian or otherwise because God would not be found there and we would be putting our souls in danger merely from the proximity to the unbelievers. The apparent current belief that all faiths are equal, valid and pleasing to God is a relatively recent development within the Church. We were taught that those who never knew the faith THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, could be saved, but those who had heard of it and rejected it were doomed.
  #9  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:46 am
Shin Shin is offline
Senior Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 6,207
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyAnn View Post
Are you saying that Vatican II changed a definitive teaching of the Church? This was taught by the Popes and Fathers of the Church for 19 centuries. Was this all of a sudden changed at Vatican II? Do you honestly believe that? If so, what other Dogmas of the Church do you also believe are dispensible and wil be done away with in the future? The Trinity? The Divinity of Jesus? In your opinion, is it wrong for a Caholic today, to believe what was taught for the 19 centuries prior to Vatican II?

Also, as an fyi - the priest whose sermons are posted on Audio Sancto are ALL priest of good standing within the Catholic Church and have FULL faculties. None of the priest on Audio Sancto are considered to be outside the Church, or in an irregular status.
From what I heard Fr. Feeney was against baptism of blood and desire, this priest is not.

Fr. Feeney was disciplined and in trouble, this priest is not and is good standing.

There's the difference.

Ott's says baptism by blood and desire are sent. fidei proxima, that is a doctrine which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such. So Feeney had some room for maneuver, his opinions could be considered just barely possible, and he was in the end disciplined not for his beliefs, but for disobedience to his superiors.

However he and his are not the subject of this thread at all.

The priest above is in good standing and is teaching very traditional Catholic teaching, on means and method, and how we should be fearful for the salvation of those who are outside of the Church visibly in this life.. we have to work out our own salvations in fear and trembling.. the few are the saved.. it is -not- easier outside, and squeaking in at the last minute. At all.
  #10  
Old Jan 4, '10, 10:57 am
NeelyAnn NeelyAnn is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 28, 2006
Posts: 471
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil_Anthony View Post
Moses never joined the Catholic Church while on earth, are you saying Moses is in hell?

Or are you saying that starting at the moment of the Crucifixion, that every devout Jew who died without having heard of Christ is now in hell?

Or would you set the turning point at some other event, like the resurrection or pentecost? No matter where you set it, you'll be condemning holy people who never heard of Christ to hell.
I always find this argument to be unrelated and completely nonsensible. The sermon is referring to the Catholic Church and thus those who are outside the Church since it's founding. It is not discussing those before the founding of the Church.

None the less, to answer your question, see the following from the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X (published around 1911):

27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebook...s/pcreed09.htm


Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, when discussing the forthcoming Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church referred to the catechism of Saint Pius X.:

“The faith, as such, is always the same. Therefore, St. Pius X's catechism always retains its value, … There can be persons or groups that feel more comfortable with St. Pius X's catechism. It should not be forgotten that that Catechism stemmed from a text that was prepared by the Pope himself [Pius X] when he was Bishop of Mantua. The text was the fruit of the personal catechetical experience of Giuseppe Sarto, whose characteristics were simplicity of exposition and depth of content. Also because of this, St. Pius X's catechism might have friends in the future .”[1]
  #11  
Old Jan 4, '10, 12:27 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,144
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin View Post
From what I heard Fr. Feeney was against baptism of blood and desire, this priest is not.
He did say that even though others may have true Sacraments, they are of no avail. That gave me pause. It also contradicts the Church's teaching on the validity of Protestant baptism.
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
  #12  
Old Jan 4, '10, 12:38 pm
Neil_Anthony Neil_Anthony is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Posts: 4,876
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyAnn View Post
no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
Sounds like you're saying that Moses and Abraham are in hell. Either that, or you're saying that they were Catholics. Which is it?

The fact is, they weren't Catholics, and they're in heaven. You'll come back and say that they're part of the Church. Of course they are, and if Jews who lived 1000 years before Christ can be part of the Catholic church, then so can many other people, and your claims are misleading!
  #13  
Old Jan 4, '10, 12:43 pm
pnewton's Avatar
pnewton pnewton is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 26,144
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeelyAnn View Post
I always find this argument to be unrelated and completely nonsensible. The sermon is referring to the Catholic Church and thus those who are outside the Church since it's founding. It is not discussing those before the founding of the Church.

None the less, to answer your question, see the following from the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X (published around 1911):

27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.
I find consideration of the patriarchs of value in this issue. It is not nonsense unless one likes to disregard data that one does not like. In general, it is uncharitable and counter-productive to call some's idea nonsense. I am sure you would not like it.

Since the Patriarchs spiritually belong to the Church, it shows the possibility that one can belong to the Catholic Church spiritually with out being connected directly to Her. They are inside the Ark...spiritually. Now take Pope Gregory's quote. When he made that statedment, there was no baptism except from the Catholic Church. One could be a schismatic or heretic, but one was first baptized into the Church. Today, that is simply not so. We have data that Pope Gregory did not know and could not have imagined. He did not disregard the Patriarchs, for he knew of them. He could not have know of Protestants, therefore he could not have commented on them. That is why we must of necessity look to our Holy Father today for leadership and guidance. One would be imprudent to think that all Protestants are going to Heaven, or that they have a good chance of going to Heaven. They lack the Sacramental Grace that is found in the Catholic Chuch. It is possible that the are culpable in rejecting the Church and thus can not even be said to belong spiritually. They may have mortal sin that lacks both Sacramental Confession and perfect contrition. At best it is hard to be in this Ark for those who do not have the avenues of Grace found in Her. But all that are not on the roll of the Catholic Church are not doomed to Hell.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

I find the anonimity of the priest on this site interesting. For all we know this was not a priest, or one in good standing with Rome. The site provides no documentation on a matter of princiiple. Okay, if that's what they want. But then they have to understand that the speakers of these audio files can not be assumed any certain authority.
__________________
Nooo!! I didn't mean it!
  #14  
Old Jan 4, '10, 12:50 pm
Rogerteder Rogerteder is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2008
Posts: 698
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

I have always found it amusing how even traditional Catholics can't seem to accept the dogma "Outside the Church There is No salvation."

BOTTOM LINE: You must be Catholic to get into heaven. If you die and are outside the Church you won't make it to heaven.
  #15  
Old Jan 4, '10, 12:58 pm
Shin Shin is offline
Senior Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Posts: 6,207
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
He did say that even though others may have true Sacraments, they are of no avail. That gave me pause. It also contradicts the Church's teaching on the validity of Protestant baptism.
He was quoting a saint on that -- They don't mean it in the direct sense of non-functionality you're probably thinking they mean it.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8298Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5062CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4349Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: James_OPL
4033OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: 3DOCTORS
3849SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3603Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: James_OPL
3257Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3210Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3181Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3063For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: ineeda



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:46 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.