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  #1  
Old Jan 6, '10, 5:17 pm
rwillenborg rwillenborg is offline
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Default John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."

Is it true that the word 'woman' here is the same word that was used in genesis when talking about emnity between satan and 'the woman'? Is that why he uses the term woman?

What is this story supposed to show us? More specifically, why does he say his hour has not yet come and the performs the miracle anyway? Sure, you can say that he does it because his mother asked him to, but then why does he even say his hour has not yet come? I mean, I wouldn't say to my husband 'We're leaving for dinner at 6 o'clock' and then walk out the door at 5. See what I mean? If his ministry wasn't supposed to start then, why did he go ahead and perform that miracle?

And what does he mean what does that have to do with us? Is he saying 'That's not my problem'? Why would he say that?

I think there MUST be some significance to this being the first miracle of Jesus' ministry. What do you think the reason is that THIS of all the miracles is shown first? (or at least, I think it's shown first...)

How is it that the servants at this wedding listened to Mary when she told them to do as Jesus says? I used to tend bar, and no way, no how, even if I ran out of wine (who planned this shindig anyway...NEVER EVER run out of wine people!!) I wouldn't go around asking the guests for help, would I? Nor would I go listening to them when they told me to do crazy stuff like go get water. I guess, to me, this just doesn't seem like the normal way people would be acting at a wedding.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to poke around old threads and see what I can find. I DO wish it was a little easier to search them. Oh well.
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  #2  
Old Jan 6, '10, 5:31 pm
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CatholicGuy22 CatholicGuy22 is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by rwillenborg View Post
And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."

Is it true that the word 'woman' here is the same word that was used in genesis when talking about emnity between satan and 'the woman'? Is that why he uses the term woman?

What is this story supposed to show us? More specifically, why does he say his hour has not yet come and the performs the miracle anyway? Sure, you can say that he does it because his mother asked him to, but then why does he even say his hour has not yet come? I mean, I wouldn't say to my husband 'We're leaving for dinner at 6 o'clock' and then walk out the door at 5. See what I mean? If his ministry wasn't supposed to start then, why did he go ahead and perform that miracle?

And what does he mean what does that have to do with us? Is he saying 'That's not my problem'? Why would he say that?

I think there MUST be some significance to this being the first miracle of Jesus' ministry. What do you think the reason is that THIS of all the miracles is shown first? (or at least, I think it's shown first...)

How is it that the servants at this wedding listened to Mary when she told them to do as Jesus says? I used to tend bar, and no way, no how, even if I ran out of wine (who planned this shindig anyway...NEVER EVER run out of wine people!!) I wouldn't go around asking the guests for help, would I? Nor would I go listening to them when they told me to do crazy stuff like go get water. I guess, to me, this just doesn't seem like the normal way people would be acting at a wedding.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to poke around old threads and see what I can find. I DO wish it was a little easier to search them. Oh well.
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  #3  
Old Jan 6, '10, 6:18 pm
Verbum Verbum is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

Hi R__,

Commentators tell us that using "Woman" addressing a lady in public, even your mother, was the proper way to act. Nothing to do with "woman" used in other parts of the bible.

If you read the gospel of John through, you will find Jesus talking several times about his hour, that is the reason he came on earth, namely to die for our sins. The moment he started his preaching, he was on his way to calvary. His hour had come.

Now you ask why, if his hour has not come, he starts his mission on his mother's request. He does not give an explanation. He just does it. And this shows the surprising role that Mary has in our salvation. God willed that she should give her consent to his incarnation. He willed that she should be the one to ask Him to start his mission. He finally willed her to "stand by" the cross, when Jesus was crucified, actively offering him to the Father for the salvation of men. We call Mary "Mediatrix of All Graces" because God chose to go through her to effect our salvation.

As to your last question, a wedding is a family affair. Jesus and Mary were invited. They knew these people, and they knew that they were embarrassed. They helped them save face.

Dos this answer your questions?

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  #4  
Old Jan 6, '10, 6:55 pm
rwillenborg rwillenborg is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by Verbum View Post
Hi R__,

Commentators tell us that using "Woman" addressing a lady in public, even your mother, was the proper way to act. Nothing to do with "woman" used in other parts of the bible.

If you read the gospel of John through, you will find Jesus talking several times about his hour, that is the reason he came on earth, namely to die for our sins. The moment he started his preaching, he was on his way to calvary. His hour had come.

Now you ask why, if his hour has not come, he starts his mission on his mother's request. He does not give an explanation. He just does it. And this shows the surprising role that Mary has in our salvation. God willed that she should give her consent to his incarnation. He willed that she should be the one to ask Him to start his mission. He finally willed her to "stand by" the cross, when Jesus was crucified, actively offering him to the Father for the salvation of men. We call Mary "Mediatrix of All Graces" because God chose to go through her to effect our salvation.

As to your last question, a wedding is a family affair. Jesus and Mary were invited. They knew these people, and they knew that they were embarrassed. They helped them save face.

Dos this answer your questions?

Verbum
It does help, thank you. i think what you said about God willing her to be the one to start Jesus' ministry (and really, his earthly life!) is an interesting one. It still leaves me wondering though, why would he even say his hour had not yet come? If he was going to perform that miracle then clearly 'his hour' in the sense that 'his hour' was the start of his ministry HAD in fact come. See what I mean? And, if Mary hadn't asked, would Jesus have done it anyway? There's no way to KNOW for sure, I know that, but I was curious as to what conjecture people might have on that question.
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  #5  
Old Jan 6, '10, 7:02 pm
chessmane4e5 chessmane4e5 is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by rwillenborg View Post
It does help, thank you. i think what you said about God willing her to be the one to start Jesus' ministry (and really, his earthly life!) is an interesting one. It still leaves me wondering though, why would he even say his hour had not yet come? If he was going to perform that miracle then clearly 'his hour' in the sense that 'his hour' was the start of his ministry HAD in fact come. See what I mean? And, if Mary hadn't asked, would Jesus have done it anyway? There's no way to KNOW for sure, I know that, but I was curious as to what conjecture people might have on that question.
Well, in light of the other miracles Jesus performed, turning water into wine was not a life or death matter. So he probably would not have done anything, except his mother asked him to.

Obviously, Mary knew that Jesus was "special" which is why she asked Jesus to do something. But his reply of "My hour has not yet come" reminds me of the way he spoke to Peter when Peter was going the wrong direction. I always thought this was a reference to the Cross. But I see that it could also be about the start of his ministry.
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  #6  
Old Jan 6, '10, 7:21 pm
rwillenborg rwillenborg is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by chessmane4e5 View Post
Well, in light of the other miracles Jesus performed, turning water into wine was not a life or death matter. So he probably would not have done anything, except his mother asked him to.

Obviously, Mary knew that Jesus was "special" which is why she asked Jesus to do something. But his reply of "My hour has not yet come" reminds me of the way he spoke to Peter when Peter was going the wrong direction. I always thought this was a reference to the Cross. But I see that it could also be about the start of his ministry.
About Mary knowing jesus was 'special'.
That's another questino I forgot to ask initally. When Mary asked this of Jesus, what was she expecting? He hadn't performed any miracle before this (that we know of), what was she asking him to do here? She knew he was special, but didn't know specifically how, right? So, why would she think he would perform a miracle? Or, was it the case that she was just telling him this problem, the way a person would tell any other person, and this was just his response? I know, I know, alot of question...but I know the answers are out there...somewhere!!!
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  #7  
Old Jan 6, '10, 7:30 pm
chessmane4e5 chessmane4e5 is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by rwillenborg View Post
About Mary knowing jesus was 'special'.
That's another questino I forgot to ask initally. When Mary asked this of Jesus, what was she expecting? He hadn't performed any miracle before this (that we know of), what was she asking him to do here? She knew he was special, but didn't know specifically how, right? So, why would she think he would perform a miracle? Or, was it the case that she was just telling him this problem, the way a person would tell any other person, and this was just his response? I know, I know, alot of question...but I know the answers are out there...somewhere!!!
Well, I do not think anyone has the "exact" answer, but we all sure have an opinion

I would say that maybe Mary was prompted by the Holy Spirit.

I also find it interesting that it is John who writes about this miracle and it was to Mary and John to whom Jesus said while on the cross, "Woman behold your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!".
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  #8  
Old Jan 6, '10, 7:30 pm
exoflare exoflare is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by rwillenborg View Post
She knew he was special, but didn't know specifically how, right?
Well, she already knew that He was God, even since before His birth. I don't know how much more "special" it can get after that.
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Old Jan 6, '10, 7:59 pm
rwillenborg rwillenborg is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Well, she already knew that He was God, even since before His birth. I don't know how much more "special" it can get after that.
Well, I thought (and I could be wrong on this) that she specifically DIDN'T know that he was God. Gabriel never said that Jesus was God. She just knew she would have a son without knowing man. So, yes, VERY special indeed, but would she necessarily conclude that she would be giving birth to God?
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  #10  
Old Jan 6, '10, 8:11 pm
chessmane4e5 chessmane4e5 is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by rwillenborg View Post
Well, I thought (and I could be wrong on this) that she specifically DIDN'T know that he was God. Gabriel never said that Jesus was God. She just knew she would have a son without knowing man. So, yes, VERY special indeed, but would she necessarily conclude that she would be giving birth to God?
"Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in you womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end." Luke 1: 30-33

Mary asks how will this happen.

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. Luke 1:35

So, very special to say the least. If an angel appeared to me, told me I was going to have the Son of God and I was still a virgin yet became pregnant. I would be thinking the child I would have would be pretty special.

We also do not have any accounts of Jesus as a boy. For all we know, He may have performed some pretty miraculous things, that only Mary saw.

Mary probably did not know that Jesus was God, she knew He would be the Son of God. Of course, it is dangerous to assume either way, as the Holy Spirit could have easily told Mary that Jesus was God, namely the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all One God.
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  #11  
Old Jan 6, '10, 8:24 pm
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HisWill777 HisWill777 is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by chessmane4e5 View Post

We also do not have any accounts of Jesus as a boy. For all we know, He may have performed some pretty miraculous things, that only Mary saw.
We should know, read on: John 2:11 - This, the first of his miraculous signs......
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Old Jan 6, '10, 11:09 pm
exoflare exoflare is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by chessmane4e5 View Post
Mary probably did not know that Jesus was God, she knew He would be the Son of God. Of course, it is dangerous to assume either way, as the Holy Spirit could have easily told Mary that Jesus was God, namely the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all One God.
There's also Elizabeth's "Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my LORD?" I find it hard to believe that somehow Elizabeth knows that Jesus is God before He is even born, and yet somehow Mary remains ignorant of this fact for years afterward. Never mind that Elizabeth is also saying this right to Mary's face and yet Mary never refutes her or gives so much as any kind of surprised reaction.
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Old Jan 7, '10, 5:47 am
rwillenborg rwillenborg is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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There's also Elizabeth's "Why should I be honoured with a visit from the mother of my LORD?" I find it hard to believe that somehow Elizabeth knows that Jesus is God before He is even born, and yet somehow Mary remains ignorant of this fact for years afterward. Never mind that Elizabeth is also saying this right to Mary's face and yet Mary never refutes her or gives so much as any kind of surprised reaction.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that!
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Old Jan 7, '10, 6:43 am
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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=rwillenborg;6139128]And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."

Is it true that the word 'woman' here is the same word that was used in genesis when talking about emnity between satan and 'the woman'? Is that why he uses the term woman?

I think there MUST be some significance to this being the first miracle of Jesus' ministry. What do you think the reason is that THIS of all the miracles is shown first? (or at least, I think it's shown first...)

How is it that the servants at this wedding listened to Mary when she told them to do as Jesus says? I used to tend bar, and no way, no how, even if I ran out of wine (who planned this shindig anyway...NEVER EVER run out of wine people!!) I wouldn't go around asking the guests for help, would I? Nor would I go listening to them when they told me to do crazy stuff like go get water. I guess, to me, this just doesn't seem like the normal way people would be acting at a wedding.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to poke around old threads and see what I can find. I DO wish it was a little easier to search them. Oh well.
WOW Lots of great questions. Thanks.

Reguards "my hour has not come" refers specifically to Christ Passion and death.

Mt. 26:45 "45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. "

The term "women" does refer to Eve as Mary is the new Eve, but of equal signifiance is the fact that this points to Mary as [future tense] being the Mother of all humanity.

Jn. 19: 26 "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" and to John who represents us; "son behold yor mother."

The First miracle is both Providential [caused by God for a specific purpose] and Prothetic, in what it signifies:

1. That Jesus is God [ therein introduces His Divinity]

2. That as God He complete contol over all "natural things"

3. That if Jesus can turn ordinary water into wine, Jesus can and would turn Bread and Wine into His Real Glorified Body and Blood in Catholic Holy Communion. Mt. 28:20
" ... and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Lk. 22:19-20 [19] And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood".

As to why they listened to Mary? Divine intervention and inspiration, AND what did they have to lose except maybe there jobs or lives. [Someone was at fault for not having sufficient wine]. Historian speculate that this was caused by the presense of the Apostles who were not expected?

EVERYTHING, every little thing; no matter how great or seemingly insignifiant is EITHER caused by God or permitted by God for two consistant reasons:

1. Our POSSIBLE sactification [our choice not God's] [God id Glorifed even if we say no by virtue of the FACT that He gives us the opportunity.

2. God's Greater Glory


Hope this helps?

Love and prayers,
Pat
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  #15  
Old Jan 7, '10, 6:57 am
chessmane4e5 chessmane4e5 is offline
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Default Re: John 2:4 "my hour has not yet come" what does this mean?

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Originally Posted by HisWill777 View Post
We should know, read on: John 2:11 - This, the first of his miraculous signs......
I would only say the first of his public signs. For all we know, Mary may have asked Jesus to do all kinds of stuff, but in private. This could have been the first time Mary asked Jesus in public, and He had also just assembled His Apostles.

Ultimately it does not matter, the purpose of the Gospel is to relate some of the works Jesus did, but not all of them. John 21:25 "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."
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