Why is "Natural Family Planning" ok when other contraceptive methods are not?

[Tracy Spenst]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

In fact, St. Augustine condemned natural family planning. It is wrong to interfer with contraception by any method.

If St. Augustine lived in 1968, he would have submitted his own view to that of the Vicar of Christ on earth. We can point to many teachings of the great saints of the Church that were not approved later on. That is why Jesus appointed ONE who would have the last word. Otherwise, we might as well go back to being Protestants--and being our own popes.

Tracy

[Qoeleth]

History shows us that Popes sometimes get it wrong. If NFP is used to prevent pregnancy, it IS being used as a contraceptive. How can you say the a method designed to prevent pregnancy is anything other than contraceptive?

The Church's teaching on NFP is not an article of faith or dogma. It is certainly not an infallible teaching!

"NFP" is contraception, pure and simple- contraceptive in intent, and contraceptive in effect.

[1ke]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

In fact, St. Augustine condemned natural family planning. It is wrong to interfer with contraception by any method.

Care to provide a source for this statement?

I think it would be difficult for St. Augustine to condemn something that didn't exist until 1500 years after he died.

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

If a couple does not want children, they should stop having sex.

That is what one does when one practices NFP. One abstains from relations.

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

St. Clement of Alexandria said, "to have sex other than to procreate children, is to do injury to nature."

Saints are not infallible. This statement conflicts with Church teaching.

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

If you read the story of Onan in Genesis (38-8-10), he wants to have sex but avoid the risk of conception. For this he is condemned, and destroyed by God.

Yes, Onan committed the sin of contraception.

[1ke]

Originally Posted by Chicken Licken

Just to throw a spanner in the works, by 'completed', does that mean that if my husband withdraws before completing the act, this is also wrong? We don't use any other method of contraception, but I know my husband worries a lot that we are not ready for another child. Our first (and only) child is now 5.

Yes. This is contraception and it is wrong.

And, morality aside, it's also higly ineffective as a method of birth control. Please learn Natural Family Planning if you have a serious reason to avoid pregnancy.

[PJM]

=AskSeekKnock;6139559]I understand and respect the teaching that contraception interferes with God's plan, and that to partake in his gift of sexuality without simultaneous openness to the creation of new life is to take only half of what God intended for us.

I'm having a hard time understanding, however, why it is that natural family planning (NFP) is ok when it is, in fact, a method of contraception. Modern symptothermal fertility awareness, complete with basal body temperature, cervical monitoring, luteinizing hormone assays, etc. make NFP more effective than condoms when used correctly. So there is less "openness" to new life, statistically speaking, with NFP and yet NFP is acceptable while condoms are not.

In a similar vein, intercourse during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle can never result in pregnancy, and an NFP couple knows this well. Do they then sin having intercourse then, since there is no openness to new life at that time? What about intercourse when a woman is already pregnant - no chance for another pregnancy then, so no openness to creation there either. And intercourse after menopause - is that sinful?

Please do not take my comments as a light hearted attempt to respond to your profound questions.

The answer to your final question is No they do not sin, because that is part and partial of how women are Created.

The answer to the OPW...

In the hierarchy of Order and Control,

God has His job, and we have "our job."

Our job is to Obey and to be open to His Will,

God's job is to determine if and when a pregnancy occurs. [Every sexual act does not result in pregnancy.]

To not accept and employ NFP is to freely deny God His rightful role in life matters. Further, it denies the architect of Creations MASTER PALN, and substitute’s selfish and prideful technology, and lust commonly replaces love.

An all -Knowing, all-Wise, all-Good God made us in a specific and precise manner for the POSSIBILITY of birth in order to retain the right to decide ALL life and death issues.

Anything that interrupts this Divine Plan, Denies God, Denies God’s Wisdom and Denies God’s Will; all of which are Mortally sinful.

As the architect of Humanity, God knows well our limitations, and built into the act of married sexual union, an opportunity that He can accept, and that we must accept, to space our children, if there is legitimist need and cause.

This is acceptable to God because it remains natural. Open to the :POSSIBILITY of life, and does not place a physical barrier designed by man to prevent pregnancy.

[ryecroft]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

History shows us that Popes sometimes get it wrong. If NFP is used to prevent pregnancy, it IS being used as a contraceptive. How can you say the a method designed to prevent pregnancy is anything other than contraceptive?

The Church's teaching on NFP is not an article of faith or dogma. It is certainly not an infallible teaching!

"NFP" is contraception, pure and simple- contraceptive in intent, and contraceptive in effect.

It sounds like you're coming awfully close to saying that the Pope is wrong in saying that NFP is a morally just way to try to control when to get pregnant. That's some dangerous territory as a Catholic you're standing in. You are free to use (if married and if your spouse is in agreement with you) nothing at all and have as many children as you can support if that is the wish of both of you. But please keep in mind that regardless of using NFP or the pill or whatever for birth control/contraception, if God wants you to get pregnant and you're having sex, you will get pregnant regardless. There are many out there that can avow to this fact
God bless
Rye

[Qoeleth]

Originally Posted by 1ke

Care to provide a source for this statement?

I think it would be difficult for St. Augustine to condemn something that didn't exist until 1500 years after he died.


.

You are wrong. Natural Family Planning has been around for a long time- anyone who breeds domestic animals can work it out.

In 338 Augustine wrote in "On the Morals of the Manicheans":
"Is it not you (the Manicheans) who used to counsel us to observe as much as possible the time when a woman, after her purification, is most likely to conceive, and to abstain from cohabitation at that time...? From this it follows that you consider marriage is not to procreate children, but to satiate lust."

''Abstaining from cohabitation", when the "woman is most likely to conceive" is exactly what NFP is. It is a reference to NFP, unambiguously condemning it- as early as the 4th Century.

[ryecroft]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth

You are wrong. Natural Family Planning has been around for a long time- anyone who breeds domestic animals can work it out.

In 338 Augustine wrote in "On the Morals of the Manicheans":
"Is it not you (the Manicheans) who used to counsel us to observe as much as possible the time when a woman, after her purification, is most likely to conceive, and to abstain from cohabitation at that time...? From this it follows that you consider marriage is not to procreate children, but to satiate lust."

''Abstaining from cohabitation", when the "woman is most likely to conceive" is exactly what NFP is. It is a reference to NFP, unambiguously condemning it- as early as the 4th Century.

Well, I guess it's a good thing that St. Augustine didn't become a Pope and put his sign of Infalibility on it - but wait that Infalibility has really only been put on one thing anyway - that having to do with the Immaculate Conception.
Again just because a Saint said it does not mean that we must abide by it or that it is something the Pope has backed up. It's generally a good idea to listen to what they said but it doens't mean we must follow it. They were in a different time when people welcomed children and had to have many because of the death rate. For whatever reason the Pope has given us the o.k. to use NFP if we believe we have good reason to put off having children - He did not say what those reasons were or what they had to be or include. We have to have something to space children in this society and time because quite frankly many of us just can't afford to have as many children as we possibly could.
And in all honesty, I'm glad I can think about having children and if I have everything I need in order to give them the life I want to give them. And as a last comment, if God wants me to get pregnant neither nfp of abc is going to stop that happening as long as my husband and I are active.
God Bless
Rye

[Tracy Spenst]

Originally Posted by ryecroft

And as a last comment, if God wants me to get pregnant neither nfp of abc is going to stop that happening as long as my husband and I are active.
God Bless
Rye

Rye,

I think you have made a very valid point there, although I would disagree with one aspect.

NFP always allows God to give a pregnancy even if everything indicates infertility. However, I would not agree that contraception does the same thing.

If a couple is contracepting, then they are using their free will to choose to control things their own way, regardless of God's directives through His Church. In that case, it's sort of like someone saying that a person who commits suicide is within the will of God because it was their "time." No, one can act contrary to the will of God--He gives us that option--and contraception is a wrenching of control out of His hands into our's. God may wish to give someone children, but their use of contraception slams the door in His face. Besides, for all the children aborted through the use of the Pill, IUD, Depo-provera, etc., we know it happens...

Tracy

[ryecroft]

Originally Posted by Tracy Spenst

Rye,

I think you have made a very valid point there, although I would disagree with one aspect.

NFP always allows God to give a pregnancy even if everything indicates infertility. However, I would not agree that contraception does the same thing.

If a couple is contracepting, then they are using their free will to choose to control things their own way, regardless of God's directives through His Church. In that case, it's sort of like someone saying that a person who commits suicide is within the will of God because it was their "time." No, one can act contrary to the will of God--He gives us that option--and contraception is a wrenching of control out of His hands into our's. God may wish to give someone children, but their use of contraception slams the door in His face. Besides, for all the children aborted through the use of the Pill, IUD, Depo-provera, etc., we know it happens...


I would agree with your first point but for one thing - how then do explain why so many wind up pregnant while using birth control - I'ts happened to me as well as with NFP. It seems that (IMHO) God can allow anything to happen he likes. I wish I understood why it sometimes happens (if it's different) with abc - I understand with NFP (even though it really bites that you think you're all good and then find that all of your abstaining did nothing because you wound up pregnant anyway!) -

Also, you mention the children aborted through the pill, etc - I have read on the inserts that it "may" cause this- I still have yet to see one study that proved that this occured. I would be very happy to see one if you have it (and not just Catholic doctors saying they "know" it happens) - show me medical proof, then I will believe. I guess I'm rather like St. Thomas needing to see, but when I saw a 12 week pregnancy aborted and saw the child (the silent scream) moving away and the heart rate increasing - no person I believe could deny that was a child that felt things. But I do agree with what you said otherwise. I'm really trying to pray about abc even though I'm allowed to use it because of medical reasons. (before someone says something - double effect comes into play with my condition)

God Bless
Rye

[Learning123]

I have friends who feel using NFP is always immoral. I have known others who worried that they might have over time begun to use it immorally. When I was concerned about the subject I talked with our parish priest. Granted you can get different answers that way, but they are available to offer counsel. One priest basically said once we have any children we have shown an openness to life, and thus NFP is fine indefinitely after that. That came across a little weird but did my best to work with the answer, reading more about NFP. Another child and change in parish priest later, I met with the new priest. I discussed with him our reasons for delaying for now--he responded that we were OK to delay and also asked what our response would be should we discover an unplanned pregnancy. Sure there would be a bit of fear initially, but we would be ecstatic.

Many a post has mentioned that NFP can be used to delay or to conceive. Many a post has mentioned that NFP can be used morally or perhaps immorally (i.e.-not a significant reason to delay/avoid conception). If you're unsure about your own situation, perhaps seek a priest willing to talk with you.

God Bless.
PS-Thermal based methods indicated that I wasn't even ovulating. Doctors used these methods to say to us that we wouldn't be able to conceive. Thankfully they were wrong! We eventually found a mucous based method, and I'm grateful for it. Just my experience, my two cents.

[Tracy Spenst]

Originally Posted by Learning123

PS-Thermal based methods indicated that I wasn't even ovulating. Doctors used these methods to say to us that we wouldn't be able to conceive. Thankfully they were wrong! We eventually found a mucous based method, and I'm grateful for it. Just my experience, my two cents.

The Sympto-Thermal Method (taught be Couple-to-Couple League) uses both basal body temp and mucus. I'm surprised there's anyone out there who just uses a thermal method, though I'm wondering if it's done more in Europe than here.

And I'm so glad you found something to help you get pregnant! This is a heavy cross for so many couples to bear.

Tracy

[Tracy Spenst]

Rye,

Good morning! Sure is fun to wake up to a stimulating discussion!!


I would agree with your first point but for one thing - how then do explain why so many wind up pregnant while using birth control - I'ts happened to me as well as with NFP. It seems that (IMHO) God can allow anything to happen he likes.

Sure, that's true. We can point to many instances in history where God has intervened in things thought impossible, both in ways we would consider positive and negative (from our perspective, anyway, God knows what He is about). However, when I asked Couple-to-Couple League's main office folks how often that has happened, I was told they have found less than five instances in the last twenty years to be true surprises. Most of the time when someone says they have a "surprise," they were not charting correctly or faithfully. I always figure if a couple is using the method correctly all the time and still get pregnant, then they should watch that child carefully because God has something amazing planned for him!

Also, you mention the children aborted through the pill, etc - I have read on the inserts that it "may" cause this- I still have yet to see one study that proved that this occured. I would be very happy to see one if you have it (and not just Catholic doctors saying they "know" it happens) - show me medical proof, then I will believe.

Well, you can always call the company themselves and ask. That's what the friend who told me about the abortion-causing effect did. Or, rather I should say, her husband did because she insisted on using the Pill and he was against it. After hemming and hawing for awhile, the person admitted that, yes, it does work that way if the ovulation suppression doesn't work. That was 16 or 17 years ago. I don't think they'd even hem and haw about it anymore. As for studies, check out One More Soul's website for that. However, a simple look at the hormones used in the Pill will tell you that it causes the womb to be inhospitable to new life. But, check out OMS's site--they keep the most current on the info.

However, you already know that it's true or else how could any woman get pregnant on the Pill? Besides, I know I ovulated on the Pill because I asked my doctor why I was having ovulation pain. He never answered me.

I guess I'm rather like St. Thomas needing to see

Maybe, but do you really want the reputation he's lived with for the past 2000 years?!!

I'm really trying to pray about abc even though I'm allowed to use it because of medical reasons. (before someone says something - double effect comes into play with my condition)

What bothers me the most with it being used for a medical condition is that the Pill cures nothing!!! Whatever the underlying cause for the problem is simply ignored because the Pill is such a great band-aid. Band-aids don't cure. But, if that's your only option (and with some insurance companies it is--they won't pay for more testing, etc. to find the cause), then you can still avoid the time when a breakthrough ovulation might occur. OMS or Priests for Life might have the info. on how that is figured. That way you are avoiding the possibility of abortion while still receiving the medical treatment.

God Bless
Rye

You, too!
Tracy

[ryecroft]

Originally Posted by Tracy Spenst

Rye,

Good morning! Sure is fun to wake up to a stimulating discussion!!


I would agree with your first point but for one thing - how then do explain why so many wind up pregnant while using birth control - I'ts happened to me as well as with NFP. It seems that (IMHO) God can allow anything to happen he likes.

Sure, that's true. We can point to many instances in history where God has intervened in things thought impossible, both in ways we would consider positive and negative (from our perspective, anyway, God knows what He is about). However, when I asked Couple-to-Couple League's main office folks how often that has happened, I was told they have found less than five instances in the last twenty years to be true surprises. Most of the time when someone says they have a "surprise," they were not charting correctly or faithfully. I always figure if a couple is using the method correctly all the time and still get pregnant, then they should watch that child carefully because God has something amazing planned for him!

Also, you mention the children aborted through the pill, etc - I have read on the inserts that it "may" cause this- I still have yet to see one study that proved that this occured. I would be very happy to see one if you have it (and not just Catholic doctors saying they "know" it happens) - show me medical proof, then I will believe.

Well, you can always call the company themselves and ask. That's what the friend who told me about the abortion-causing effect did. Or, rather I should say, her husband did because she insisted on using the Pill and he was against it. After hemming and hawing for awhile, the person admitted that, yes, it does work that way if the ovulation suppression doesn't work. That was 16 or 17 years ago. I don't think they'd even hem and haw about it anymore. As for studies, check out One More Soul's website for that. However, a simple look at the hormones used in the Pill will tell you that it causes the womb to be inhospitable to new life. But, check out OMS's site--they keep the most current on the info.

However, you already know that it's true or else how could any woman get pregnant on the Pill? Besides, I know I ovulated on the Pill because I asked my doctor why I was having ovulation pain. He never answered me.

I guess I'm rather like St. Thomas needing to see

Maybe, but do you really want the reputation he's lived with for the past 2000 years?!!

I'm really trying to pray about abc even though I'm allowed to use it because of medical reasons. (before someone says something - double effect comes into play with my condition)

What bothers me the most with it being used for a medical condition is that the Pill cures nothing!!! Whatever the underlying cause for the problem is simply ignored because the Pill is such a great band-aid. Band-aids don't cure. But, if that's your only option (and with some insurance companies it is--they won't pay for more testing, etc. to find the cause), then you can still avoid the time when a breakthrough ovulation might occur. OMS or Priests for Life might have the info. on how that is figured. That way you are avoiding the possibility of abortion while still receiving the medical treatment.

God Bless
Rye

You, too!
Tracy

Although the Doctor thinks we're close to being able to try again - I have to stay well the next few months, I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm not just taking birth control to not have kids - I'm mainly taking it because it stops me from bleeding to the point of having transfusions - but some of the other answers are surgical and could prevent me from having children if they didn't work 100% -

I'm not trying to offend, but with the studies unless I see a medical study with them, I take they use of the works "may cause" with a grain of salt - there are pro choicers who will quote anything that helps them (not necessarily always checking it out) - but I've also found that some of the ant abortion people will do this too to fire home or make things sound worse. I've done quite a bit of research on the whole birth control and abortion and breat cancer link and there are studies that show it to be a possibility (there was one, often quoted study for a while that I found had 12 participants - hardly what I would call a healthy, legitimate, large group)- while they had 95-100% showing a link between abortion and breast cancer, it can't be taken seriously as a true medical study- - while I found this one that Janet Smith referred to in one of her talks or writting,s can't remember if it was one or both, I will look at other studies to see if it can be taken seriuously- I was fairly pro choice - and I still am in situations where the mother may die (been there - almost did die trying to keep it going as long as possible)-after seeing the silent scream, it showed a 12 week gestation where the "fetus" was trying to get to the other side of the womb away from the instruments and had an increased heart rate. Anyway I'll get off my soap box here- but I appreciate what you mentioned earlier.
God Bless
Rye

[chessmane4e5]

Originally Posted by AskSeekKnock

I should probably be clear about two things:

1) I was a cradle Catholic, left the Church in college and was Protestant for 10 years, and am now in the midst of a reversion.

2) I have used NFP in my marriage for 6 years, both to successfully avoid conception when desired, and to successfully conceive twice when desired. (Medical problems made other, more convenient contraceptive methods too risky). It was hard to learn, but I don't find it hard to practice - in my opinion, this is one of the persistent myths of NFP that keeps people from giving it a try.

However it's also a myth that NFP is not effective. It is effective, and therefore in my mind we ARE "contracepting". We conceive when we want, and don't when we don't want. I find it hard to understand the distinction that renders this "manipulation" of our union ok and "different" from other forms of contraception.

NFP can become a sin, like contraception, if it is used selfishly. What I mean is, if you have a good reason to not have children right now, then NFP helps you space your children. On the other hand, if you have always wanted only 2 children, and now you have them so you intend to use NFP to prevent any more kids, that would be a sin.

It is definitely a tricky road to walk. My wife and I talk and pray about it. All we can do is try not to be selfish and therefore use NFP like Birth Control.