Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jan 12, '10, 7:07 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2,304
Religion: Catholic
Default Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

I know this is a false doctrine. I'm just interested in the where and how of it's origins. Did any of the Church Fathers teach it or it is a child of the Reformation?
__________________
--

Gary J Sibio
If you would like to see my photos, click here.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Jan 12, '10, 8:07 pm
kristanl kristanl is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2009
Posts: 511
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

It came out after the Protestant Reformation, from the ECF sources I have read, most of them rely heavly on tradition, and scripture (but many of this is through word of mouth).
__________________
"Do not fear nor be dismayed, for the LORD, you God, is with you wherever you go" -Joshua 1:9
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Jan 13, '10, 12:20 am
garysibio garysibio is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2,304
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by kristanl View Post
It came out after the Protestant Reformation, from the ECF sources I have read, most of them rely heavly on tradition, and scripture (but many of this is through word of mouth).
Thanks. That's what I thought.
__________________
--

Gary J Sibio
If you would like to see my photos, click here.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Jan 13, '10, 12:40 am
Akini Akini is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2009
Posts: 97
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Its origin is the Reformation of course, particularly Martin Luther himself? Let's not waste our time on such unbiblical doctrines especially when they are of human origins.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Jan 13, '10, 1:05 am
garysibio garysibio is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2,304
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akini View Post
Its origin is the Reformation of course, particularly Martin Luther himself? Let's not waste our time on such unbiblical doctrines especially when they are of human origins.
Actually, I'm not sure Luther believed in OSAS. I know Calvin did but I'm not sure about Luther.

BTW, my purpose in asking was to put together a response to those who believe in this false doctrine. Showing how it originated can be very helpful.
__________________
--

Gary J Sibio
If you would like to see my photos, click here.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Jan 13, '10, 6:50 am
Syele Syele is offline
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: September 9, 2006
Posts: 2,473
Religion: Christian
Send a message via MSN to Syele Send a message via Yahoo to Syele Send a message via Skype™ to Syele
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
BTW, my purpose in asking was to put together a response to those who believe in this false doctrine. Showing how it originated can be very helpful.
It is not a doctrine of Luther but Calvin. If you are formulating a response to it, know that very very few Protestants will call it OSAS. They Call it Perseverance of the Saints. Its the P in the Calvinist TULIP, start there.

I think its more of a conclusion based on the TULI parts than anything.
__________________
The outcome of any serious research can only be to make two questions grow where only one grew before. - Thorstein Veblen (1857 - 1929)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:02 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 3,794
Religion: the "Way"
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Jerome taught preservation of the saints.
As did Jesus the Christ and Paul His apostle.
Include in the mix Ambrosiaster and Origen and Hillary and Ambrose.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:05 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Posts: 16,447
Religion: Christian (seeking admission to the Catholic Church)
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin View Post
Jerome taught preservation of the saints.
As did Jesus the Christ and Paul His apostle.
Include in the mix Ambrosiaster and Origen and Hillary and Ambrose.
None of the people you mention taught any such doctrine. The burden of proof is on you.

We will go round and round on the Scriptural evidence to no profit, so how about you provide evidence that the five post-Biblical Church Fathers you mention taught this? In fact they did not. (Not if by "preservation of the saints" you mean that all the regenerate will persevere to the end.)

Edwin
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:10 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 3,794
Religion: the "Way"
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini View Post
None of the people you mention taught any such doctrine. The burden of proof is on you.

We will go round and round on the Scriptural evidence to no profit, so how about you provide evidence that the five post-Biblical Church Fathers you mention taught this? In fact they did not. (Not if by "preservation of the saints" you mean that all the regenerate will persevere to the end.)

Edwin
Do you consider JND Kelly a reputable source of information?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:26 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 3,794
Religion: the "Way"
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

From Kelly's Early Christian doctrines he comments in regards to Jerome.
"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved."
You can find this on page 484
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:29 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Posts: 16,447
Religion: Christian (seeking admission to the Catholic Church)
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by garysibio View Post
I know this is a false doctrine. I'm just interested in the where and how of it's origins. Did any of the Church Fathers teach it or it is a child of the Reformation?
Definitely a product of the Reformation (though one can perhaps find some basis for it in dualistic heretical movements before the Reformation). St. Augustine and many/most Western theologians in the Middle Ages believed that God chooses certain people for salvation (without violating free will, which of course raises difficult questions), but that people who are not finally destined for salvation can receive regenerating grace. Such people will eventually fall into sin and fail to repent.

Not only did Augustine and other pre-Reformation Augustinian Catholic theologians not teach the perseverance of the regenerate, but as someone else has already pointed out Martin Luther didn't either (nor did any of the Lutheran Reformers, as far as I know--it's one of the dividing points between the Lutherans and the Reformed). It was a doctrine that seems to have arisen in the 1520s among the South German and Swiss Reformers. Possibly Zwingli was the first one to teach it, but I have found at least four people all teaching it within a few years of each other: Zwingli, Johannes Oecolampadius, Martin Bucer, and Martin Borrhaus (also known as Cellarius). This last is particularly interesting to me because his doctrine of election and perseverance was linked to the idea that the elect have a "seed" or "spark" in them which makes them pious from birth. Because of this "seed" they cannot fail to be saved, while those who do not have this seed (because they are not among those God has chosen) cannot possibly be saved. Here's a lengthy quote from Cellarius illustrating his teaching:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellarius, [I
De operibus Dei [/i](1527), chap. 5] they [the elect] are made aware of Godís goodness by certain little sparks of divine light shining beforehand, placed in them by the grace of predestination, through which [sparks] people of every nation and station under heaven have been chosen. By secret sighs they groan for [Godís] mercy when sin solicits them in the members of death, and these sighs do not cease until the Lord illumines the heart with a more splendid light, when the Gospel concerning the Son has been revealed. The Spirit sets his seal [assuring] the certain hope of growing favor, and that heavenly spark, as if shining among dead ashes, comes back to life, and the seed of light that has been scattered matures for the harvest of the constant action of the Fatherís mercy. In this seed we are always dear to God from the womb, a seed which certainly not nature but grace sows, which not the flesh but the Spirit implants, which does not bring forth thistles and thorns from the earth, but is put into our hearts from heaven above, to bear fruit most richly in its proper time when the earth shall be pleasing to the farmer, being irrigated by the heavenly rains and dews of the living word of God, and brought under the sacred Cross.


This is interesting to me because Cellarius was rejected by other Reformed theologians as a heretic, and because his doctrine of a "seed of light" (which sounds rather Gnostic) downplays the importance of faith or conversion. And yet I can show that Martin Bucer (an important Reformed theologian who arguably was a major influence on Calvin), in the first edition of his commentary on the Synoptic Gospels (also 1527), uses similar language.

It's possible that Cellarius got much of his teaching from Zwingli and just went a bit further than his mentor. However, Zwingli also can be read as downplaying the need for faith and conversion. He taught that the elect could be saved without faith, if they never had a chance to hear the Gospel and believe (this would apply both to infants and to adults who never heard the Gospel). This didn't seem to cause a lot of difficulties for his theology, because election was the thing that saved people in Zwingli's view.

Calvin is important for the story largely because he successfully blended this Reformed teaching about predestination and perseverance with the Lutheran teaching about justification by faith alone. (He wasn't the first to do this--all the Reformed had claimed that they basically agreed with the Lutherans on this point, and Bucer in particular made valiant efforts to use the Lutheran terminology--but Calvin was the most successful and influential synthesizer of the two traditions.) Calvin was so successful in doing this that most Reformed--and many non-Reformed Christians as well--assume that the two emphases have always gone hand in glove. But they haven't.

Edwin
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:34 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 3,794
Religion: the "Way"
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Jacques Le Goff the 12th and 13th century historian recorded this in his "Birth of Purgatory"
"Like Hilary and Ambrose, Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith. Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes: 'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'"

Again JND writes on this issue.
"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment', the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Jan 13, '10, 9:37 am
myfavoritmartin myfavoritmartin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 3,794
Religion: the "Way"
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

I stand corrected after rereading i should have stated these have writings that allude to it, not that promoted the doctrine that would be taking it to far.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Jan 13, '10, 10:17 am
Church Militant's Avatar
Church Militant Church Militant is offline
Forum Elder
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2004
Posts: 25,623
Religion: Catholic: Revert
Cool Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin View Post
From Kelly's Early Christian doctrines he comments in regards to Jerome.
"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved."
You can find this on page 484
That's not OSAS in the context of modern Protestantism, just wishful thinking and twisting of out of context quotes.

OSAS is well refuted by John Martignoni on his cite.

Once Saved, Always Saved? The notes for his Bible study are found here.
__________________



Dominus meus et Deus meus
Michael


Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Jan 13, '10, 11:51 am
garysibio garysibio is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Posts: 2,304
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Origins of "Once Saved, Always Saved"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syele View Post
It is not a doctrine of Luther but Calvin. If you are formulating a response to it, know that very very few Protestants will call it OSAS. They Call it Perseverance of the Saints. Its the P in the Calvinist TULIP, start there.

I think its more of a conclusion based on the TULI parts than anything.
That's what I thought. I think "Preservation of the saints" is a more hard-core Calvinist name for the doctrine. When I was an Evangelical we used to call it eternal security.
__________________
--

Gary J Sibio
If you would like to see my photos, click here.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8569Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Kellyreneeomara
5241CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4436Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3895Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: DesertSister62
3876SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3463Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3318Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3237Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3171For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: eschator83



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:11 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.