My mother's marriage?

fireproofpoodle · #1 Feb 8, '10, 1:39 pm

Hi.

My mother divorced my father two years ago, and now she is planning to re-marry. Her and my father were married in an Anglican church, so never recieved the sacrament. She and her new spouse, who are both Anglican, will either marry in one of their churches or in a civil ceremony.

My question is, as a Catholic, what should my stance be on this? I have congratulated them, given them my blessing and wished them well, although I did suggest they have a catholic wedding as neither of them seem especially devout. Is it wrong of me to support this marriage, and am I obliged not to attend the wedding?

Thanks.

**Bookcat** · #2 Feb 8, '10, 2:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

Hi.

My mother divorced my father two years ago, and now she is planning to re-marry. Her and my father were married in an Anglican church, so never recieved the sacrament. She and her new spouse, who are both Anglican, will either marry in one of their churches or in a civil ceremony.

My question is, as a Catholic, what should my stance be on this? I have congratulated them, given them my blessing and wished them well, although I did suggest they have a catholic wedding as neither of them seem especially devout. Is it wrong of me to support this marriage, and am I obliged not to attend the wedding?

Thanks.

was your father catholic at the time of the wedding and if so did he get a dispensation?

**Bookcat** · #3 Feb 8, '10, 2:17 pm

if he was a Catholic who attempted to marry without the dispensation...that is one thing.

but if it was two non Catholics...it is presumed to be valid and if they were both baptized then it would be a sacrament even...

as to attending... or showing approval...

if the first marriage was presumed to be valid...i could not recommend attending an attempted second 'marriage'

**1ke** · #4 Feb 8, '10, 2:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

My mother divorced my father two years ago, and now she is planning to re-marry. Her and my father were married in an Anglican church, so never recieved the sacrament. She and her new spouse, who are both Anglican, will either marry in one of their churches or in a civil ceremony.

If both your parents are baptized, then their marriage was indeed a sacrament. A valid marriage between the baptized is always a sacrament. If one or the other is not baptized, the marriage is still valid, but it is called a natural marriage.

Effectively, this means in either case your mother is NOT free to marry anyone. She's alreayd married.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

My question is, as a Catholic, what should my stance be on this? I have congratulated them, given them my blessing and wished them well, although I did suggest they have a catholic wedding as neither of them seem especially devout. Is it wrong of me to support this marriage, and am I obliged not to attend the wedding?

It is wrong to support people and encourage them in the commission of sins. Your mother is not free to "remarry". She is married already, to your father. A civil divorce does not dissolve the bond of marriage. Of course, the Anglican denomination has all but abandoned this teaching that Christ gave us so your mother may be convinced she is doing nothing wrong.

You should discuss the situation with your pastor. It is never prudent to give the appearance of supporting an invalid marriage attempt (which this would be). It is also imprudent to alienate your family. You should make it known that you love her and do not want to support her but cannot support an invalid attempt at marriage. So, weigh the situation with your priest/confessor and determine the best course of action.

Edited to add:
The above answer is based on both your parents being Anglicans. A big piece of the puzzle is missing. Is your father an Anglican or is he a Catholic? If a Catholic, did he marry under the laws of the Church (receive a dispensation from form to marry in the Anglican ceremony?).

This makes a difference as to the validity of your parents' marriage.

choy · #5 Feb 8, '10, 2:31 pm

sorry as i don't want to derail someone else's thread, but i think this question applies

if a person was married, but not in a Catholic church, and now divorce and marries again, can they do so in a Cathoic church?

**1ke** · #6 Feb 8, '10, 2:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by choy

if a person was married, but not in a Catholic church, and now divorce and marries again, can they do so in a Cathoic church?

If they are found free to marry by a Catholic marriage tribunal.

There are many factors here that can impact the situation. Prior marriages on the part of either party, whether or not either party is Catholic, whether or not proper marriage laws were followed, whether or not the parties are baptized.

We cannot give an answer to a general question like this. The general rule of thumb would be that any person who has a prior marriage would need to approach a Catholic priest and lay out all the facts surrounding their marriage, their baptismal status, their ex-spouse's information, etc, and then be guided by that priest through the necessary process.

It may well be that the facts indicate that the person will need to petition the marriage tribunal regarding the nullity of any prior marriage. It could be that other avenues are pursued in the case of a Catholic who didn't follow the Church's marriage laws, or there may be recourse to the dissolution of the bond if certain conditions apply.

So, step one: go see a priest and tell them all the facts.

**Bookcat** · #7 Feb 8, '10, 2:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by choy

sorry as i don't want to derail someone else's thread, but i think this question applies

if a person was married, but not in a Catholic church, and now divorce and marries again, can they do so in a Cathoic church?

where they Catholic at the time? and i assume they did not get a dispensation or they had formally defected (which was possible for a time but now is not)

If so then they can have easy grounds for annulment which means that it is judged that the first marriage was invalid...and thus can be married in the church

or if they were not catholic...it is still possible if the first marriage is judged non existent (invalid)...etc...(if they were not baptized also can play into this)

best for the person to contact their diocese via their pastor...or soon to be pastor if they are not catholic

choy · #8 Feb 8, '10, 2:54 pm

well, i'm thinking of several scenarios

one, they are catholics who either have become lukewarm to the faith or have fallen off but not converted to any other faith and would still consider themselves catholic

two, one or both from another religion or Christian denomination

and they could either be married through a non-Catholic religious ceremony, or through a civil wedding

in these cases, where do the "exceptions" apply, if there is any?

rick43235 · #9 Feb 8, '10, 3:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ke

Your mother is not free to "remarry". She is married already, to your father. A civil divorce does not dissolve the bond of marriage. Of course, the Anglican denomination has all but abandoned this teaching that Christ gave us so your mother may be convinced she is doing nothing wrong.

So, what are previously married non-Catholics to do if they want to get married again (in a church other than the Catholic Church)? Does the Anglican Church have a tribunal that examines marriages similar to the Catholic Church?

Ferds Guiang · #10 Feb 8, '10, 11:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by choy

sorry as i don't want to derail someone else's thread, but i think this question applies

if a person was married, but not in a Catholic church, and now divorce and marries again, can they do so in a Cathoic church?

It would be good to approach the parish priest so the proper gathering of information can be done. If the facts prove that one or both of the couple are still Validly married (meaning that their marriage has not been annulled by a Catholic tribunal) then they may not get married in the Catholic Church. Now in case one or both the couple seeking marriage were formerly married and have since divorced, the Parish priest will have to determine whether the couple have received a Valid sacrament of Matrimony (The Catholic Church accepts the marriage in some Christian churches as a Valid sacrament). If one or both of them was in a Valid marriage then the Parish priest has to gather evidence that the marriage has been properly annulled before allowing them to get married in the Catholic Church.

**1ke** · #11 Feb 9, '10, 5:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick43235

So, what are previously married non-Catholics to do if they want to get married again (in a church other than the Catholic Church)? Does the Anglican Church have a tribunal that examines marriages similar to the Catholic Church?

Outside the authority of the Catholic Church to examine marriages for validity, there is no recourse.

fireproofpoodle · #12 Feb 9, '10, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookcat

if he was a Catholic who attempted to marry without the dispensation...that is one thing.

but if it was two non Catholics...it is presumed to be valid and if they were both baptized then it would be a sacrament even...

as to attending... or showing approval...

if the first marriage was presumed to be valid...i could not recommend attending an attempted second 'marriage'

Wow, this is going to be awkward! My father is not Catholic, and because they were married by an Anglican priest ... oh wait, I have just remembered something new as I am typing. My father was married before my mother, and I think he and my mother were simply blessed ... In this case, then, could my father be sacramentally bound but my mother not?

I was under the impression that the sacrament of marriage could only be conferred by a validly ordained priest, and so Anglican marriages wouldn't be valid. I certainly wouldn't have given my support had I known this was sacrelige! Any advice on how to handle this from here on?

**1ke** · #13 Feb 9, '10, 2:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

Wow, this is going to be awkward! My father is not Catholic, and because they were married by an Anglican priest ... oh wait, I have just remembered something new as I am typing. My father was married before my mother, and I think he and my mother were simply blessed ... In this case, then, could my father be sacramentally bound but my mother not?

Yes, that is quite possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

I was under the impression that the sacrament of marriage could only be conferred by a validly ordained priest,

This is not accurate.

The bride and groom confer the sacrament upon each other by the giving and receiving of consent (vows). In the case of Catholics, the priest is the official witness for the Church and those seeking marriage must be married in the Catholic form. Non-Catholics are not bound by the Catholic laws on marriage regarding form. Therefore, when they exchange consent before their own clergy or a civil official, their marriage is valid.

Now, in the case of your father, we don't know what religion the wife before your mother was. If she was Catholic or not could have bearing on the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

Any advice on how to handle this from here on?

Well, it sounds like your father is attempting his third marriage. How to handle it is to be a witness for the Gospel to him and pray for him to see the truth about how he is living his life.

You should still discuss with your priest your course of action regarding the upcoming ceremony.

Ferds Guiang · #14 Feb 10, '10, 6:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireproofpoodle

Wow, this is going to be awkward! My father is not Catholic, and because they were married by an Anglican priest ... oh wait, I have just remembered something new as I am typing. My father was married before my mother, and I think he and my mother were simply blessed ... In this case, then, could my father be sacramentally bound but my mother not?

I was under the impression that the sacrament of marriage could only be conferred by a validly ordained priest, and so Anglican marriages wouldn't be valid. I certainly wouldn't have given my support had I known this was sacrelige! Any advice on how to handle this from here on?

I wish it would be possible for you to ascertain whether your Dad really got married in the Anglican church before marrying your Mom because that would answer whether your Dad is in fact still sacramentally bound (this is presuming your Mom never entered into sacramental marriage before).
In the assumption that your Dad is still bound sacramentally then any marriage that occurs after that would be immoral. Thus I think it would be proper to tell your Dad about this and let's hope he doesn't find offense in your expressing of your beliefs. Please pray also for more prudence because this could be quite a sensitive issue.

fireproofpoodle · #15 Feb 13, '10, 2:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferds Guiang

I wish it would be possible for you to ascertain whether your Dad really got married in the Anglican church before marrying your Mom because that would answer whether your Dad is in fact still sacramentally bound (this is presuming your Mom never entered into sacramental marriage before).
In the assumption that your Dad is still bound sacramentally then any marriage that occurs after that would be immoral. Thus I think it would be proper to tell your Dad about this and let's hope he doesn't find offense in your expressing of your beliefs. Please pray also for more prudence because this could be quite a sensitive issue.

I think I haven't been very clear. Here's how I think it happenned:
My Dad married his first wife, Ellaine, in what I think was an Anglican ceremony.
They divorced.
My dad married his second wife, my mother, in a civil ceremony with a blessing from an Anglican priest.
They divorced.
My mum is now engaged to her boyfriend, and it is she who is going to marry.
My dad has a girlfriend, but I don't think he plans to marry her.

So, could it be the case, then, that the marriage of my mother and my father was invalid, and thus that my mother is still free to marry whoever she wants but my father is not, because he was married before her?