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  #1  
Old Mar 1, '10, 1:38 pm
Tmaque Tmaque is offline
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Default Transfiguration made up?

At Mass yesterday the homilist said the transfiguration didn't really occur and that the apostles made the story up at a later date. I found this very disturbing. Can anyone tell me if this has happened elsewhere and if so, why would our seminaries teach such a thing to our priests and deacons?
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  #2  
Old Mar 1, '10, 1:52 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

I'm going to hope that this poor person really was saying something slightly different that simply got misinterpreted, because it certainly is not authentic Catholic teaching.

"Homilist"? Was this a priest or deacon? If a deacon, you could ask him (with a cc to the priest) why he said this.

If a priest, you could ask him why he said this, and then ask your bishop to 'clarify'.

No, the transfiguration was not 'made up'. It's extremely clear in Scripture that it was a 'prefiguring' of Christ's glory which He allowed Peter, James and John to see in order to help their faith through the coming trial of His passion, death and resurrection.

You're right. . .it's extremely disturbing that somebody made such statements and it needs to be 'nipped in the bud' and authentic and correct teaching needs to get out there STAT!
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  #3  
Old Mar 1, '10, 1:52 pm
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmaque View Post
At Mass yesterday the homilist said the transfiguration didn't really occur and that the apostles made the story up at a later date. I found this very disturbing. Can anyone tell me if this has happened elsewhere and if so, why would our seminaries teach such a thing to our priests and deacons?
That is distressing. Sounds like your homilist has fallen into the trap of the branch of historical criticism that assumes that there is a complete disconnect between "the Jesus of History" and "the Christ of Faith." Which is, of course, heretical nonsense and has largely fallen out of fashion, besides. . . . but there was a time when it was considered so very uncool to still believe in miracles.

You could write to your bishop, someone might check up on the guy.
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Old Mar 1, '10, 1:58 pm
Tmaque Tmaque is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

It was the deacon and I did not misunderstand him. He gave a long explanation regarding why it was a made up story. The priest was right there and did not correct him in any way. I plan to ask the priest why this occurred and what can be done about it.
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  #5  
Old Mar 1, '10, 2:02 pm
Tmaque Tmaque is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

Hey Tantum,

I noticed we joined CAF within two days of each other nearly 6 years ago. You obviously have more free time than I do however.
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  #6  
Old Mar 1, '10, 2:06 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

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Originally Posted by Tmaque View Post
Hey Tantum,

I noticed we joined CAF within two days of each other nearly 6 years ago. You obviously have more free time than I do however.
LOL, you'd think that post-wise. It's a good thing I can type rapidly, that's the secret.
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  #7  
Old Mar 1, '10, 2:11 pm
rocketrob rocketrob is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

You may also want to take along the Dogmatic Constitution
on Divine Revelation (DEI VERBUM) from Vatican II:

Quote:
Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven...(DV paragraph 19)
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  #8  
Old Mar 1, '10, 2:45 pm
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Edwardjohn Edwardjohn is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmaque View Post
It was the deacon and I did not misunderstand him. He gave a long explanation regarding why it was a made up story. The priest was right there and did not correct him in any way. I plan to ask the priest why this occurred and what can be done about it.
Well, both of them will know the truth when they go to meet the Lord. That would be interesting to witness.
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  #9  
Old Mar 1, '10, 3:01 pm
patg patg is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

There is no domatic reason to believe it actually occured and it is the type of thing that would naturally be inserted by the author in their attempt to show how great Jesus was, very similar to the mostly fictional infancy narratives. It is certainly "true" but it is not necessarily the retelling of an actual event. Nowhere does Dei Verbum require us to believe in the literal historicity of the of every gospel story.

I am a little surprised the priest would bring up such a thing out of the blue as it can be unsettling to those not well versed in the church's documents on scripture study.
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Old Mar 1, '10, 3:20 pm
simspt simspt is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patg View Post
There is no domatic reason to believe it actually occured and it is the type of thing that would naturally be inserted by the author in their attempt to show how great Jesus was, very similar to the mostly fictional infancy narratives. It is certainly "true" but it is not necessarily the retelling of an actual event. Nowhere does Dei Verbum require us to believe in the literal historicity of the of every gospel story.

I am a little surprised the priest would bring up such a thing out of the blue as it can be unsettling to those not well versed in the church's documents on scripture study.
PAT,
What are some of the arguments against the literal event of the transfiguration. I havent done my homework on this one. Is it the silence of the event in other books?? Brown mentions it but doesnt elaborate in critical meaning or at least not to my understanding. I agree it seems a little strange to be bringing it up in the context of a homily vs. bible study etc.
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  #11  
Old Mar 1, '10, 3:30 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

Here we go again, with naive historical criticism of scripture.
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  #12  
Old Mar 1, '10, 3:34 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patg View Post
Nowhere does Dei Verbum require us to believe in the literal historicity of the of every gospel story.
I would have to respectfully disagree. While that may be more or less true about some of the Old Testament stories, the Gospels are an entirely different matter, as rocketrob's quote from DV makes quite clear:
Quote:
Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven...(DV paragraph 19)
Besides, if we were to fall into the trap of parsing which of the Gospel stories were literally true and which ones weren't, how far do you go? Which ones were and which ones weren't? Who's to decide the criteria for deciding and who decides which story (if any) makes the final cut? Me? You? The Jesus Seminar?
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  #13  
Old Mar 1, '10, 3:35 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

I find it a tad unsettling that nearly 2000 years 'later' (during which time period Scripture was accepted by all Christians as being historically true within the confines of the Jewish literary tradition) we suddenly have a group of "scholars" who dance around the idea such that they remind me of the old Red Skelton joke. . .where he, serving in the Army, was heard to bellow upon taking a drink of water, "Hey, somebody put some water in the chlorine!"

That joke was funny because of course we know that in drinking water which has been 'treated' for potability, the vast majority of the liquid is water, and the chemicals are but a tiny proportion of the whole.

Now, the Jewish literary tradition (which was very specific) was a very 'tiny' proportion of the whole. The earlier writers of the OT were not necessarily concerned with blind 'statistics'. . .but that doesn't mean that because they used a poetic 'figuring' that somehow all the writers in the NT would not only use 'exaggeration' or even falsehood in an attempt to 'make a better story'!! The writers in the OT did not use the literary devices to 'make a more convincing story' . . .they used them because as writers of the time and period they were able to do so to express a truth which (being the OT) was necessarily to be 'veiled' until the fulfilment by Christ.

Looking at the writers and traditions of the first century AD we see that far from the 'exaggerations' that were used not only in Jewish but in all "western' writers (see Homer), writers were more inclined both to 'statistics' (see Caesar's Commentaries) and to clear, crisp prose which used actual events without exaggeration and relied on dialogue and on factual evidence presented to bolster the point (see Cicero's works).

The 'scholars' of the Jesus Seminar illustrate Pope's dictum that "A little learning is a dangerous thing'. In an attempt to present their theories as truth, they subtly emphasize, redirect, or outright ignore what doesn't 'fit' their theories, and blandly offer as 'fact' their opinions and interpretations as 'gospel true.'

I've waited my 40 years in the wilderness for the return of the Latin Mass and it has come to pass. I have little doubt that what (small) bit of enlightenment came through the JS (and in SPITE of their very apparent bias and twisted miseries) will also remain while within the next decade or so we'll see a swift end to the convoluted craziness which attempts to yank "Jesus the man who never did a miracle, never died, never rose, but was just such a 'special' person for his social JUSTICE" from "Jesus the Christ", God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity, who suffered, died and rose from the dead and who performed signs and wonders for us through His great kindness and mercy.

I think most of us prefer the reality of Jesus the Christ to the pseudohippie invented Jesus the Man. Old heresies might like to dress themselves in new tie-dye but they were wrong then and they're wrong now.
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  #14  
Old Mar 1, '10, 4:40 pm
JimG JimG is online now
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

The homilist was wrong.
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  #15  
Old Mar 1, '10, 4:50 pm
simspt simspt is offline
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Default Re: Transfiguration made up?

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Originally Posted by Crumpy View Post
Here we go again, with naive historical criticism of scripture.
This historical-critical method of studying scripture to my understanding in and of itself is somewhat neutral but those who employ it all have presuppositions obviously and some are very honest about this, some aren't. From my understanding the Pope has acknowledged its usefulness while simultaneously warned against its misuse. I agree with you there are naive presuppositions held by liberal scholars (ie who hold materialist world views) who project their own beliefs and biases onto Jesus the Jew who lived in the first third of the first century. These scholars are typically anti-Church and anti-miracle. There are also very talented Catholic and Protestant scholars who employ it responsibly who are more objective with the data (100% objectivity is impossible).
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