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  #1  
Old Mar 1, '10, 9:39 pm
shark76z shark76z is offline
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Default Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

What are the differences between the Catholic and Lutheran Mass? I know the whole "transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation (or similar)" in the Eucharist, but what else?
  #2  
Old Mar 1, '10, 9:58 pm
Gabriel of 12 Gabriel of 12 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shark76z View Post
What are the differences between the Catholic and Lutheran Mass? I know the whole "transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation (or similar)" in the Eucharist, but what else?

"Validity"? interpretation of the Creed? One follows Luther's teachings, the other follows the 2000 year old Apostolic teachings from the Gospel unchanged. Lutherans celebrate the Written Word of God, Catholics celebrate both the Word God and the Word of God made flesh in our presence, without any hinderance from ones emotional enlightenment. God is "IAM" in the Catholic Mass.

In the Catholic Mass heaven and earth are united in one body in Jesus Christ which includes the Saints, Martyrs, Angels, the blessed Mother, Apostles are all present.
I don't know if Lutherans believe in the communion of Saints and angels present in their liturgy?
  #3  
Old Mar 1, '10, 10:08 pm
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

The Catholic Mass is also believed by Catholics to be a living Sacrifice. There is an altar where Christ in an unbloody sacrifice is offered before Christ. Catholics believe this Sacrifice is the exact same one that occured at Calvary 2,000 years ago. The priest is not a pastor or elder but a priest, a sacrificer. The Mass is considered a moment of worship where the liturgy is outside of time and we experience Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity. The angels and, as Gabriel said, the communion of saints are present. The Blessed Virgin Mary is always invoked, the sign of the Cross made, Eucharistic language is different, the priestly role is different (like I said) and the Mass is really meant to be experienced along with the sacrament of Confession before.
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Old Mar 1, '10, 10:23 pm
Gabriel of 12 Gabriel of 12 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

[quote=gurneyhalleck1;6351883]The Catholic Mass is also believed by Catholics to be a living Sacrifice. There is an altar where Christ in an unbloody sacrifice is offered before Christ. Catholics believe this Sacrifice is the exact same one that occured at Calvary 2,000 years ago. The priest is not a pastor or elder but a priest, a sacrificer. The Mass is considered a moment of worship where the liturgy is outside of time and we experience Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity. The angels and, as Gabriel said, the communion of saints are present. The Blessed Virgin Mary is always invoked, the sign of the Cross made, Eucharistic language is different, the priestly role is different (like I said) and the Mass is really meant to be experienced along with the sacrament of Confession before.[/QUOTE]


Good point gurney; "for nothing unclean can go before God's presence" thus we not only confess our mortal sins before Mass, but we also confess our venial sins before Mass in community in the Pentiential Rite.

I wonder if Lutherans are taught that When we Catholics worship God in Spirit and Truth on earth as it is in heaven?
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Old Mar 1, '10, 10:30 pm
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littlequestion littlequestion is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

if you really want to understand Lutherans, listen to the NPR radio show Prairie Home Companion

Gurney, I am really glad you posted about how it is a moment of universal eternal Time in the Mass, something so many people miss! Being something of a physics freak, I love that part where we are indeed lifted out of human time for that brief moment.
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Old Mar 2, '10, 3:51 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

[quote=Gabriel of 12;6351910]
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
T the Mass is really meant to be experienced along with the sacrament of Confession before.[/QUOTE]


Good point gurney; "for nothing unclean can go before God's presence" thus we not only confess our mortal sins before Mass, but we also confess our venial sins before Mass in community in the Pentiential Rite.
True our venial sins are forgiven by sincere participation in the Penitential Rite and by receiving Communion. But to clarify in case anyone is confused, it is perfectly permissible for a Catholic with an unconfessed mortal sin to attend Mass. In fact if it's Sunday he MUST attend Mass or he will commit another mortal sin. But he is not allowed to receive Communion (until he has confessed). Of course he should try to confess before going to Mass if possible.
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Old Mar 2, '10, 3:58 am
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

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Originally Posted by shark76z View Post
What are the differences between the Catholic and Lutheran Mass? I know the whole "transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation (or similar)" in the Eucharist, but what else?
the Lutherans do not celebrate Mass because they reject the entire notion of Mass as a sacrifice and the notion of priesthood to carry out the sacrifice. The celebrate a rite of the Lord's Supper but outside the context of the Catholic definition of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as participation and making present the sacrifice of Calvary and with it of course the transubstantiation of the substance of bread and wine sacramentally into the substance of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
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  #8  
Old Mar 2, '10, 4:02 am
Bluegoat Bluegoat is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

My, this thread is a bit light on the Lutheran side, and I think some of the implied beliefs that the Catholic posters have suggested for Lutherans are probably incorrect.

Lutherans of course also believe in the Real Presence, and are expected to have confessed and repented of their sins; the latter is not of course done in the same way.

Lutherans also believe in the Body of Christ and the Communion of saints. I'll have to leave it to a Lutheran to explicate how they are seen to be present in the Eucharist.

I love Prairie Home Companion. The sketch about the Lutheran's Guide to the Orchestra is also wonderful and hilarious.
  #9  
Old Mar 2, '10, 6:17 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

Rather than debate what Lutherans believe about the Mass, The Eucharist, Eucharistic sacrifice, here are some links that might be of interest.

http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int...eucharist.html

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsbur....php#article24
There is a long statement about the Mass. Also you will find statements that will clear up misconceptions about the priesthood, etc.

Jon

EDIT: The apology goes into detail about Eucharistic Sacrifice.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense....php#article24
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  #10  
Old Mar 2, '10, 6:42 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

Here is another link.

http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedi...t1=m&word=MASS

Jon
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“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
  #11  
Old Mar 2, '10, 7:07 am
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

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Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
I think some of the implied beliefs that the Catholic posters have suggested for Lutherans are probably incorrect.
Now Catholics wouldn't do THAT! Would they?
  #12  
Old Mar 2, '10, 7:55 am
Newbie2 Newbie2 is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

[quote=Gabriel of 12;6351850]"Validity"? interpretation of the Creed? One follows Luther's teachings, the other follows the 2000 year old Apostolic teachings from the Gospel unchanged. Lutherans celebrate the Written Word of God, Catholics celebrate both the Word God and the Word of God made flesh in our presence, without any hinderance from ones emotional enlightenment. God is "IAM" in the Catholic Mass.

In the Catholic Mass heaven and earth are united in one body in Jesus Christ which includes the Saints, Martyrs, Angels, the blessed Mother, Apostles are all present.
I don't know if Lutherans believe in the communion of Saints and angels present in their liturgy?[/QUOTE]

In a different sort of way.

Many things that we define and attempt to explain theologically in the Catholic Church are not so well defined in Lutheranism. In my days as a LCMS Lutheran, such things were left as a mystery, although "mystery" seemed to be too Catholic a term to use in our catechism class.
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  #13  
Old Mar 2, '10, 8:40 am
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

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Originally Posted by littlequestion View Post
if you really want to understand Lutherans, listen to the NPR radio show Prairie Home Companion
LOL!!
  #14  
Old Mar 2, '10, 9:01 am
loneviking loneviking is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlequestion View Post
if you really want to understand Lutherans, listen to the NPR radio show Prairie Home Companion

Gurney, I am really glad you posted about how it is a moment of universal eternal Time in the Mass, something so many people miss! Being something of a physics freak, I love that part where we are indeed lifted out of human time for that brief moment.
What? The Evelelyn Lund Charitable Association? That isn't even close to the LCMS!

The biggest differences that I've seen, having been to both, is that the Catholic mass seems to be all about what the priest can do for you and the sacrifice that he makes for you.

In the Lutheran church it is not about the priest or pastor, but about what the word does for you. For Lutherans, the words 'this is my body, this is my blood' are what bring the real presence into the Eucharist, and not the supposed changed character of the priest.

So,yes, as one poster noted the Catholic mass focuses on a sacrifice, the Lutherans do but not in the same way.

Other than that, many things are the same. The Kyrie, the confession, the Lords' Prayer, the Apostles Creed, the sharing of the peace, all are pretty much the same.
  #15  
Old Mar 2, '10, 9:54 am
Lapey Lapey is offline
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Default Re: Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Now Catholics wouldn't do THAT! Would they?
Doesn't it make you wonder why you always find yourself on the opposite side of most Catholics in debates? Your sarcasm here is aimed at your fellow Catholic Christians...just a thought...
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