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  #1  
Old Mar 2, '10, 5:46 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

[Revelation 6]
{6:1} And I saw that the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals. And I heard one of the four living creatures saying, in a voice like thunder: “Draw near and see.”

The Seven Seals represent seven sets of events, which encompass the entire tribulation.

{6:2} And I saw, and behold, a white horse. And he who was sitting upon it was holding a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he went forth conquering, so that he might prevail.

The first seal is the first horseman, symbolizing a war, world war three, in which the Arab/Muslim extremists of the Middle East and northern Africa invade and conquer Europe. I believe this war begins in 2010.

{6:3} And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying: “Draw near and see.”
{6:4} And another horse went forth, which was red. And it was granted to him who was sitting upon it that he would take peace from the earth, and that they would kill one another. And a great sword was given to him.

The second seal is the second horseman, which symbolizes widespread civil violence throughout the world: rioting, looting, setting fires, robbery, murder, etc. This event begins soon after the war begins. The first seal is the partial cause of the second seal; people are afraid because of the war, and so they turn to violence.

{6:5} And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying: “Draw near and see.” And behold, a black horse. And he who was sitting upon it was holding a balance in his hand.
{6:6} And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A double measure of wheat for a denarius, and three double measures of barley for a denarius, but do no harm to wine and oil.”

The third seal is the third horseman, which symbolizes a great famine, from mid 2013 to mid 2020. This famine will be more severe in wealthy developed nations, and less severe in poor underdeveloped nations. In the wealthy nations, luxury goods like electronics and cars will be availabe, but at the same time there will be food shortages, food distribution problems, and rationing. The third seal is caused by the first and second seals; the war and the severe civil disorder cause problems distributing food and even growing food (in some places, such as Europe).

{6:7} And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying: “Draw near and see.”
{6:8} And behold, a pale horse. And he who was sitting upon it, his name was Death, and Hell was following him. And authority was given to him over the four parts of the earth, to destroy by the sword, by famine, and by death, and by the creatures of the earth.

The first three seals cause the fourth seal: death by a variety of causes. The 'creatures of the earth' refers to bacteria and viruses, so there are various epidemics of disease partially caused by the war, violence, and famine.
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  #2  
Old Mar 2, '10, 6:32 am
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HickmanJosh HickmanJosh is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

what makes you think its going to happen so soon, couldn't it just as easily happen in a decade or two?
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  #3  
Old Mar 3, '10, 6:18 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by HickmanJosh View Post
what makes you think its going to happen so soon, couldn't it just as easily happen in a decade or two?
The answer to that question is complicated. My study of Catholic eschatology has led me to conclude that the tribulation is divided into two parts, and that the first part will occur for this generation (2010 to 2040). There are many indications of this dating of these events.

One indication is the seventy weeks of Daniel, which I interpret to have begun "from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem," i.e. from the founding of the State of Israel in 1948.
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  #4  
Old Mar 3, '10, 11:36 am
ryanoneil ryanoneil is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

The four horsemen are forms of the sevenfold covenant curse stipulated in in the Torah (Lev 26:14-26). The same four curses ravaged Jerusalem in the sixth century B.C. (Ezek 14:21) as punishment for its infidelity to the Lord (Deut 32:23-25). Jesus warned that the same woes would come before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (Luke 21:9-11).
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  #5  
Old Mar 3, '10, 11:49 am
Art321 Art321 is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The answer to that question is complicated. My study of Catholic eschatology has led me to conclude that the tribulation is divided into two parts, and that the first part will occur for this generation (2010 to 2040). There are many indications of this dating of these events.

One indication is the seventy weeks of Daniel, which I interpret to have begun "from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem," i.e. from the founding of the State of Israel in 1948.
Excuse me, I need to ask. What makes you so certain that the end will come so soon? Didn't you take into account this...

Matthew 24:36

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
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  #6  
Old Mar 3, '10, 1:06 pm
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by ryanoneil View Post
Jesus warned that the same woes would come before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. (Luke 21:9-11).
A number of Saints and Fathers of the Church, writing after the first century A.D., interpreted the various eschatological passages in the NT as begin still in the future.
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  #7  
Old Mar 3, '10, 1:07 pm
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by Art321 View Post
Excuse me, I need to ask. What makes you so certain that the end will come so soon? Didn't you take into account this...

Matthew 24:36

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
This verse refers to the day and hour of Jesus' return.
It does not exclude knowing other dates and time frames for various events, and the order and nature of the events.

My dates for these events are speculative eschatology.
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  #8  
Old Mar 3, '10, 7:59 pm
jdevoir jdevoir is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

Ok lets see what you have...it is March 3 2010 there are 10 months left in 2010 will Europe fall? People slay me
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  #9  
Old Mar 3, '10, 9:36 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
[Revelation 6]
{6:1} And I saw that the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals. And I heard one of the four living creatures saying, in a voice like thunder: “Draw near and see.”

The Seven Seals represent seven sets of events, which encompass the entire tribulation.

{6:2} And I saw, and behold, a white horse. And he who was sitting upon it was holding a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he went forth conquering, so that he might prevail.

The first seal is the first horseman, symbolizing a war, world war three, in which the Arab/Muslim extremists of the Middle East and northern Africa invade and conquer Europe. I believe this war begins in 2010.

{6:3} And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying: “Draw near and see.”
{6:4} And another horse went forth, which was red. And it was granted to him who was sitting upon it that he would take peace from the earth, and that they would kill one another. And a great sword was given to him.

The second seal is the second horseman, which symbolizes widespread civil violence throughout the world: rioting, looting, setting fires, robbery, murder, etc. This event begins soon after the war begins. The first seal is the partial cause of the second seal; people are afraid because of the war, and so they turn to violence.

{6:5} And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying: “Draw near and see.” And behold, a black horse. And he who was sitting upon it was holding a balance in his hand.
{6:6} And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A double measure of wheat for a denarius, and three double measures of barley for a denarius, but do no harm to wine and oil.”

The third seal is the third horseman, which symbolizes a great famine, from mid 2013 to mid 2020. This famine will be more severe in wealthy developed nations, and less severe in poor underdeveloped nations. In the wealthy nations, luxury goods like electronics and cars will be availabe, but at the same time there will be food shortages, food distribution problems, and rationing. The third seal is caused by the first and second seals; the war and the severe civil disorder cause problems distributing food and even growing food (in some places, such as Europe).

{6:7} And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying: “Draw near and see.”
{6:8} And behold, a pale horse. And he who was sitting upon it, his name was Death, and Hell was following him. And authority was given to him over the four parts of the earth, to destroy by the sword, by famine, and by death, and by the creatures of the earth.

The first three seals cause the fourth seal: death by a variety of causes. The 'creatures of the earth' refers to bacteria and viruses, so there are various epidemics of disease partially caused by the war, violence, and famine.
Do you have a question about this? Or just want comments on your interpretation?
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  #10  
Old Mar 3, '10, 9:38 pm
diggerdomer diggerdomer is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The answer to that question is complicated. My study of Catholic eschatology has led me to conclude that the tribulation is divided into two parts, and that the first part will occur for this generation (2010 to 2040). There are many indications of this dating of these events.

One indication is the seventy weeks of Daniel, which I interpret to have begun "from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem," i.e. from the founding of the State of Israel in 1948.
You can interpret the seventy weeks of Daniel however you want, as many have. Most consider it a "reinterpretation" of the 70 years prophesied by Jeremiah. So...actual dates are wide open to speculation.
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  #11  
Old Mar 4, '10, 5:02 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by jdevoir View Post
Ok lets see what you have...it is March 3 2010 there are 10 months left in 2010 will Europe fall?
No, I'm not saying that Europe will be conquered in 2010, but only that the war begins in 2010 and continues throughout the 2010s.

Yes, this is speculative eschatology.
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  #12  
Old Mar 4, '10, 6:12 am
jdevoir jdevoir is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

You say the war begins...that is somewhat of a "broad" statement. Does that mean that a suicide bomber blows up a cafe in France or that a nuclear device is detonated somewhere in Europe? You also say that Europe is "invaded"..again do you mean an invasion like the one on D-Day or the Blitzkrieg of Poland? Or do you mean there will be this "unseen" infilitration of Muslims within the borders of Europe?
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  #13  
Old Mar 4, '10, 6:35 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by jdevoir View Post
You also say that Europe is "invaded"..again do you mean an invasion like the one on D-Day or the Blitzkrieg of Poland? Or do you mean there will be this "unseen" infilitration of Muslims within the borders of Europe?
The former, not the latter. An actual invasion and conquering of Europe. Then, at a later time, the great Catholic monarch frees Europe from the occupation.
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  #14  
Old Mar 4, '10, 8:44 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
The former, not the latter. An actual invasion and conquering of Europe. Then, at a later time, the great Catholic monarch frees Europe from the occupation.
So you are saying that this year Europe is going to be invaded? I know you said you were speculating so can you speculate what country is powerful enough to invade Europe (which of course is not only one country)? There isn't any country capable of doing that.
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  #15  
Old Mar 4, '10, 11:25 am
ryanoneil ryanoneil is offline
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Default Re: The book of Revelation: the four horsemen

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Originally Posted by Ron Conte View Post
A number of Saints and Fathers of the Church, writing after the first century A.D., interpreted the various eschatological passages in the NT as begin still in the future.
I personally think it is possible for them to recapitulate in the future, but there is no chance they will begin in the future. The Lord said:

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-22)

All references Jesus made to the Old Testament (including Daniel) were fulfilled in the first century. They will not begin after the first century. The real question should be "if" history repeats itself, how close will it be to the earlier fulfillments?
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