Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Mar 12, '10, 8:56 am
traillius traillius is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2008
Posts: 1,266
Religion: catholic
Default Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

I heard that he described humans and snow-covered dungheaps.
I don't view salvation, mercy, etc, as hiding our sins. I think of it as restoring us to the cleanliness that God originally created Adam and Eve with. In effect, grace and mercy aren't the snow on our dung, Rather they are the cleaning agents wiping the dung off our gold.
__________________
" Friends don't let friends drive themselves to Hell. "
  #2  
Old Mar 12, '10, 9:20 am
Madaglan's Avatar
Madaglan Madaglan is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2004
Posts: 3,388
Religion: Eastern Orthodox
Send a message via AIM to Madaglan
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traillius View Post
I heard that he described humans and snow-covered dungheaps.
I don't view salvation, mercy, etc, as hiding our sins. I think of it as restoring us to the cleanliness that God originally created Adam and Eve with. In effect, grace and mercy aren't the snow on our dung, Rather they are the cleaning agents wiping the dung off our gold.
I believe he was speaking of justification.

The Catholic understanding is that, when Christians are justified, they become righteous. Insofar that we cooperate with grace, we become righteous. There is change within us. It is for this reason that Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) regard certain Christians as saints. Through ascetic labors and the living of a holy life, they subdued their passions, overcame temptation, and grew in the virtues.

For Lutherans, justification is not so much a change in our nature as a change in God's attitude towards the sinner. A Christian is declared righteous, not made righteous.

Later Protestants would focus on how Christians could live a holy life (e.g. the pietist movement that began in Lutheran churches)
  #3  
Old Mar 12, '10, 10:56 am
FidesSpesCarita's Avatar
FidesSpesCarita FidesSpesCarita is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2009
Posts: 1,606
Religion: Catholic, Catholic, Catholic
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

“Human nature is like a dung heap covered by snow.” Martin Luther

Yes. Referring to the total depravity of human nature and how we are inherently sinful and inadequate.


FSC
__________________
"Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of "live and let live"; Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly."
Fulton J. Sheen.



Non loquendo sed moriendo
  #4  
Old Mar 12, '10, 3:47 pm
gcnuss gcnuss is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2006
Posts: 917
Religion: Lutheran - ELCA
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by traillius View Post
I heard that he described humans and snow-covered dungheaps.
I don't view salvation, mercy, etc, as hiding our sins. I think of it as restoring us to the cleanliness that God originally created Adam and Eve with. In effect, grace and mercy aren't the snow on our dung, Rather they are the cleaning agents wiping the dung off our gold.
I have searched Luther's writings and can find no evidence of the "snow-covered dungheap" saying. It is often quoted but there has never been, to my knowledge, any substantiation that it actually exists.
__________________
Peace,
Pastor Gary

We should fear and love God so that we do not deceitfully belie, betray, backbite, nor slander our neighbor, but apologize for him, speak well of him, and put the most charitable construction on all that he does.
(Luther's explanation of the 8th commandment)
  #5  
Old Mar 12, '10, 6:39 pm
Greenbrier Greenbrier is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 12, 2010
Posts: 46
Religion: Reformed
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

It is one of those things he is reported as having said, and it does sound like something he would have said but there is little evidence for him actually having done so.

At any rate, the illustration is of a piece with his view of post-lapsus human nature and justification, the idea being that we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ our own nature being fallen, filthy and depraved.
  #6  
Old Mar 12, '10, 7:04 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 24, 2004
Posts: 15,990
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcnuss View Post
I have searched Luther's writings and can find no evidence of the "snow-covered dungheap" saying. It is often quoted but there has never been, to my knowledge, any substantiation that it actually exists.
Thanks Pastor. It is good to spike these things everyone knows but are wrong.
__________________
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,
  #7  
Old Mar 12, '10, 11:20 pm
Madaglan's Avatar
Madaglan Madaglan is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2004
Posts: 3,388
Religion: Eastern Orthodox
Send a message via AIM to Madaglan
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

This blogpost addresses the very question:

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/...w-covered.html
  #8  
Old Mar 12, '10, 11:24 pm
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Posts: 3,683
Religion: Lutheran (WELS)
Send a message via AIM to TriuneUnity Send a message via Yahoo to TriuneUnity
Default Re: Did Martin Luther say this? Yes or no is the appropriate answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madaglan View Post
This blogpost addresses the very question:

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/...w-covered.html
This is one from a Reformed writer

http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2008...-langland.html

Ahh...History is always such fun.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8540Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Kellyreneeomara
5198CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4433Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3870SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3838Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3397Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3300Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3231Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3152For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:32 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.