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  #31  
Old Mar 20, '10, 5:02 am
Dokimas Dokimas is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itinerant1 View Post
Why would God do that? There is no need for that hypothesis.

Besides, it makes God out to be trickster who fools countless scientists into thinking the world has been around for billions of years.
-
Let see, if God were to create a plant what would be necessary? Water, CO2, nitrogen, O2, sunlight, etc and a place to grow in. Is God being a trickster if I look at soil and think it must have taken millions of yrs to form?
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If we are tricked, could it be because we allow ourselves to be tricked starting with a false presupposition?
-
I come home for lunch with a nice bunch of flowers for my wife. She puts them in a vase on the dining room table. I go back to work. Our children come home from school and see the flowers. "Mom, those are beautiful flowers you bought for the family." Mom answers, "I didn't buy them, Dad did." "But Dad was at work and he never comes home til night time. If he bought them, he would be tricking us, so of course we believe you did it, Mom."
-
Tricking implies intent. Being tricked implies wrong presuppositions.
  #32  
Old Mar 20, '10, 5:47 am
latin_rite latin_rite is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

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Originally Posted by rossum View Post
The Hindus invented zero so they should have number 0 which puts them before number one. And weren't the Jews there before any of the Christians?

rossum
Isn't o nothing? None says please take ticket number 0?
The only time 0 becomes anything is when it comes after 1 etc. So really. If you have ticket 0 you have have to come after ticket number 1. I don't know what the holder of ticket number 2 will think of this. But as i also hold ticket #1. I don't really care.
__________________
I don't know what’s going on with you people. You fully believe what 12 men wrote 2,000yrs ago. But you call people idiots, Because they believe what 40,000 people saw a 100 yrs ago.
"Quote from a homosexual atheist in response to a evangelical posters claims that Fatima was a lie."
  #33  
Old Mar 20, '10, 6:31 am
larkin31 larkin31 is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DorianGregorian View Post
Well, what if God created the earth in an advanced state? That is, he created the Earth as though it had existed physically for a long time...
No Biblical indication of this. A very odd idea.
  #34  
Old Mar 20, '10, 6:33 am
larkin31 larkin31 is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
Trickster is an illogical conclusion. The earth is the earth created by God with clear purpose. "God created everything for man, but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to Him:" Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 358.

Do the tools of created humanity surpass God? Perhaps we need to reevaluate the tools in order to seek knowledge which is ultimately beyond us.
I wouldn't know, but our tools are way beyond those of the writers of Genesis.
  #35  
Old Mar 20, '10, 6:59 am
rossum rossum is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dokimas View Post
Honestly, if you want to lower your humanness by thinking you are related to a chimp, that's up to you.
On the contrary, I increase my humanness by increasing the humanness of our cousins the Chimps.

I do not level humans down towards Chimps, I level Chimps up towards humans. THere are two ways the gap can be narrowed.

rossum
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The ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truth.
  #36  
Old Mar 20, '10, 7:03 am
rossum rossum is offline
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Default OT: Zero based numbering.

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Originally Posted by latin_rite View Post
Isn't o nothing? None says please take ticket number 0?
The only time 0 becomes anything is when it comes after 1 etc. So really. If you have ticket 0 you have have to come after ticket number 1. I don't know what the holder of ticket number 2 will think of this. But as i also hold ticket #1. I don't really care.
You don't program in C or any of the C-descended languages (C++, Java, C# etc.) do you.

rossum
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The ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truth.
  #37  
Old Mar 20, '10, 7:42 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Skeptic View Post
I'm glad you acknowledge that!

All life on earth is genetically related to some degree. But, whenever someone points out that we're closely related to chimps, genetically, oh boy! Some people get pissed at the thought. How about you? Are you okay with the fact that we're over 97% genetically related to chimps, or, does that idea upset you? Be honest.



(emphasis mine)

That's just incredulity on your part.
We are not - current findings put it at around 79%.
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #38  
Old Mar 20, '10, 7:45 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossum View Post
In this case it does. As we live our lives our immune systems become more complex as they encounter new pathogens and gain the ability to recognise them when encountered a second time. That recognition develops after conception and is stored in new cellular DNA.

Our DNA can 'learn' from its environment so it can deal with the common pathogens it encounters. The locals do not get "Montezuma's Revenge" but the tourists do, because the locals have developed the right DNA in their immune systems to deal with those local pathogens.

Complexity is increased for every new pathogen our immune system recognises.

rossum
Not really - the recognition is stored. This allows the system to react early next time and eradicate the pathogen at an early stage.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #39  
Old Mar 20, '10, 7:48 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itinerant1 View Post
Why would God do that? There is no need for that hypothesis.

Besides, it makes God out to be trickster who fools countless scientists into thinking the world has been around for billions of years.
The trickster argument is bogus.
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #40  
Old Mar 20, '10, 8:05 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossum View Post
On the contrary, I increase my humanness by increasing the humanness of our cousins the Chimps.

I do not level humans down towards Chimps, I level Chimps up towards humans. THere are two ways the gap can be narrowed.

rossum
This is one of my favorite essays. http://www.humboldt.edu/~essays/linzey.html
because it shows what happens to misapplied philosophy. "The effect of Cartesianism was to devastate earlier Christian traditions of kindness to animals."
In my humble opinion, the effect of Cartesianism also affected common sense science.

Blessings,


Snow is a gift of nature even when it arrives in the middle of our March Spring.
  #41  
Old Mar 20, '10, 8:11 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old (II)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp View Post
BUFFALO:
Now it gets really neat! The regulatory system can rearrange things to allow variable offspring. Micro evolution (adaptability) is built right in. What does this mean? The things that control this have to be in place before micro-evolution can take place. Bye Bye Darwin! The top evo guys get this but still have not come to terms with it. They cannot explain saltations away and now know the first cells were complex. The typical evo defender on CAF doesn't even know this exists. Why - 'because of what their boilogy classes taught them. You know the one's I am talking about - the one's that every time you question the modern synthesis they reply - take a university biology course.

PHILIPP:
So what you are saying is that within each "kind" mentioned in Genesis there is a built-in adapatability system that allows for what some folks might call speciation but what is really variability within kind. Have I got it? If this be so then speciation is nothing more than changes within kind but NO changes from one species into another like whatever preceded the great apes which then changing into hominids and hominids into homo sapiens followed by a infusion of a soul into the final higher product.

I can live with the semantics along as I don't have to believe my ancestors lost a tail when a few or many simultaneously perhaps fell out of a tree and started walking upright.

Then if the long ages of millions and billions of years don't exist then the crude statement mentioned below could be even more valid. Would you like to try your hand at editing it as is or perhaps expanding on it? I tend to agree with another post that indicates that it is not fully understandable.

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have obviously been created AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator by variation in the DNA structure of each life form. [Simul in Latin meaning “at once” in English, from Lateran IV, AD 1215]

-------------------------------
ADMIN NOTE: split from original thread, which is located here:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=428851
Yes to paragraph #1.

No tail - but your "core" has the information and capability to grow one, but because Adam and Eve didn't have one to start neither do you.

This is consistent with my idea of IDvolution.

Since it has been demonstratIed that all living organisms on Earth have the same core, it is virtually certain that living organisms have been thought of AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator endowed with the super language we know as DNA that switched on the formation of the various kinds, the cattle, the swimming creatures, the flying creatures, etc.. in a pristine harmonious state and superb adaptability and responsiveness to their environment for the purpose of populating the earth that became subject to the ravages of corruption by the sin of one man (deleterious mutations).

I had to think through this and this should be fine tuned. I call upon itinerant who has a pretty good understanding of the creative act to help.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #42  
Old Mar 20, '10, 8:15 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old (II)

Thanks to the moderator allowing this discussion to continue. This is really exciting and important.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #43  
Old Mar 20, '10, 8:56 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old (II)

more from Augustine and Evolution which ties nicely to IDvolution.

41
Hence the doctrine is clear. God, having decreed this existing order of creation created all things
simultaneously in the beginning by His simple creative word. He created in the roots of time prime
matter - under what elementary form or forms, is of no consequence - with its universal passive
potency determined to those creatures only that were to exist in the course of time; and this is the
creation of all things in their seminal reasons. This determination of passive potency was in no way
the imposition of a form, but merely the adaptation of the universal negative potentiality of prime
matter having no definite ordination to any form, to those it was actually to receive. Wherefore,
seminal reasons were, with regard to the first members of any species originating by creation,
purely passive. They were the primordial ordination of matter to respond to the creative word in
time according to each creature’s appointed time. In this response no intermediary agent intervened.
To the creative word spoken in the simple unchangeable present of eternity, the response of each
seminal reason was immediate, instantaneous, however widely separated it was from others in time;
because the moment in time for the existence of each was immediately subject to the eternal,
immutable present. Make the course of time as long as you please. Separate the beginnings of
species by what duration you like. There can be no interval between the word spoken in eternity and
its effect in time. St. Augustine leaves no room in his doctrine, as he proposes it, for Evolution.

42
His formula is as close as it is complete. The creative word, immutable, eternal, spoken once
eternally in the eternal present of God, producing its effects, therefore, immediately in time yet according
to the mutability of time, created simultaneously in the roots of times in their seminal
reasons, that is, in the determination of the passive potentiality of matter to them alone among
things abstractly possible, all creatures that were to exist, as they were to exist, each in its own time.
We must observe that this “simultaneously” does not mean simultaneously with the creative act
only, but also simultaneously among themselves. Whatever happens in time is simultaneous with the ever present moment of eternity. The simultaneous creation of creatures in the roots of times is
opposed to the successive terminations of the creative act in the course of time, whereby each
creature begins its own existence in its own time.
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #44  
Old Mar 20, '10, 9:24 am
Philipp Philipp is offline
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old.

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Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
The trickster argument is bogus.
The trickster argument is indeed bogus regarding our Creator giving billions of years look to earth and the universe when it is indeed it perhaps is only 1000's of years old. It is man who is the Trickster - case in point:

For instance Itinerant [not the trickster] in his post # 963 suggests the following: Transformism and the rationes seminales are not irreconcilable principles. Horses breed horses, and that is stability; but horses may change over long periods of time, and that is transformism.
__________________


But let's look at another view of horse "transmutation," Macroevolution, speciation, or whatever word is used by folks on this thread: It or they is challenged again by professional paleontologists. First an introduction from the web site section entitled: The Myth of Horse Evolution then the quotes:

Then what is the basis for the scenario of the evolution of the horse? This scenario was formulated by means of the deceitful charts devised by the sequential arrangement of fossils of distinct species that lived at vastly different periods in India, South Africa, North America, and Europe, solely in accordance with the rich power of evolutionists' imaginations. More than 20 charts of the evolution of the horse, which by the way are totally different from each other, have been proposed by various researchers. Thus, it is obvious that evolutionists have reached no common agreement on these family trees. The only common feature in these arrangements is the belief that a dog-sized creature called Eohippus (Hyracotherium), which lived in the Eocene period 55 million years ago, was the ancestor of the horse. However, the fact is that Eohippus, which became extinct millions of years ago, is nearly identical to the hyrax, a small rabbit-like animal which still lives in Africa and has nothing whatsoever to do with the horse.154. Reference: The Myth of Horse evolution http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natu...tory_2_12.html
Continued>>>>
Evolutionist Boyce Rensberger noted that the scenario of the evolution of the horse has no foundation in the fossil record, and that no evolutionary process has been observed that would account for the gradual evolution of horses:
The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today's much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown.152
While discussing this important dilemma in the scenario of the evolution of the horse in a particularly honest way, Rensberger brought the transitional form difficulty onto the agenda as the greatest difficulty of all.

Dr. Niles Eldredge, a curator at the American Museum in New York, , where "evolution of the horse" diagrams were on public display at that time on the ground floor of the museum, said the following about the exhibition:
There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff.153


Then who or what is the Trickster? It's not Itinerant, Rossum, "St. A" or Larkin [did I leave out anyone?]. It's not paleontologists Eldridge or Rensberger. Very simply stated it's the obsolete principles of 19th century stratigraphy and how long its takes the sediments to form and solidify into rock. Modern science is showing that those millions and billions of year for life to form simply do not exist. The species found in the geologic column are not related by transformation. They are extinct due to catastrophes and are only related because they were created ex nihilo [simul]

Paleohydraulic studies of the geologic column by lab, flume and field research and testing for C-14 in the fossils along with the study of Genetic Entropy are showing the way to confirm what the church fathers and the magisterium of the Catholic Church have always taught until the confusion caused by belief in an old earth. Darwin appears to be falling off his pedistile; Mithraism and New Age scientism are on lthe way out.
  #45  
Old Mar 20, '10, 9:32 am
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Default Re: The earth is only 6000 years old (II)

From Augustine and Evolution we see St Augustine reference the DNA code -

But this they can do only through that hidden
power in the seed derived from the seminal reasons; and this derivation is possible only because
these reasons, having determined the abstract universal potency of definite matter to particular
species to terminate the creative act in the first members of such species, determined it in such a
way, that each species was to be continued by generation.

---------------

This too fits with the cell controlling the process. The cell is the seed - the hidden power is the DNA code.
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IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

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