Has the Pope endorsed socialized medicine?

Mig · #1 Mar 20, '10, 10:25 am

I'm actively committed to finding the truth about Catholicism. Consequently I've narrowed my field of focus down to a few key questions. As per my title, this question is one those of great concern to me. Hopefully I've the right forum. If not, please re-direct me.

Straight up, it's my opinion that Christ's Church should be taking care of it's own, not some worldly (and likely anti-Christian) government agency. I simply can't see any situation where Christ's Spokesman would endorse such. If the Pope has done this, then I'd find it unlikely he's speaking for Christ.

Please feel free to correct anything you believe I have wrong here.

hellopeople · #2 Mar 20, '10, 11:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mig

I'm actively committed to finding the truth about Catholicism. Consequently I've narrowed my field of focus down to a few key questions. As per my title, this question is one those of great concern to me. Hopefully I've the right forum. If not, please re-direct me.

Straight up, it's my opinion that Christ's Church should be taking care of it's own, not some worldly (and likely anti-Christian) government agency. I simply can't see any situation where Christ's Spokesman would endorse such. If the Pope has done this, then I'd find it unlikely he's speaking for Christ.

Please feel free to correct anything you believe I have wrong here.

Are you saying that socialized medicine is evil and against Jesus? You are an American that is also a republican, aren't you? Do you think all the Catholics in Canada and other countries with socialized medicine should be fighting to take it away?

Moscati · #3 Mar 20, '10, 11:44 am

There is this, from the Catechism:

Respect for health

2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.

Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.
___

It doesn't say the government, in particular, but society has the responsibility to help with healthcare. You could interpret it several ways, I guess.

Mark77 · #4 Mar 20, '10, 12:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellopeople

Are you saying that socialized medicine is evil and against Jesus? You are an American that is also a republican, aren't you? Do you think all the Catholics in Canada and other countries with socialized medicine should be fighting to take it away?

People can respectfully disagree on the best method to provide health care to everyone!

It is very destructive to try to demean people by categorizing them or calling them names!

One thing we can all agree upon, the government is always a last resort & never should be seen as our savior! Jesus Christ is our Savior!!!!!!!!

We never want to sound like the Pharisees that said " And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" (Mt 9:11)

Jesus denounced this divisive rhetoric by teaching us; "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (Mt 9:13).

Jesus desires Mercy, not sacrifice!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

stuart12 · #5 Mar 20, '10, 12:39 pm

There is nothing wrong with the government paying for (through taxes) and providing a national health care system. In Britain, we are very proud to have it and most people want it. Yes it can be improved but in principle very few seem to be against it.

camerong · #6 Mar 20, '10, 3:41 pm

I think you have a misunderstanding about how the Pope speaks for Christ. If the Pope thinks that Toyotas are better than Hondas, and says so, that does not mean that Christ believes (and therefore it is true) that Toyotas are better than Hondas.

The Pope only speaks infallibly for Christ when making certain types of statements relating to doctrine or morality. That we (children of God) are morally obligated to provide health care to all people is a moral statement, and as such it could be infallible--though I doubt anyone would debate it. If the Pope says that universal health care is the best way to fulfill this obligation, he is speaking as to his own opinions, not for Christ's.

So don't hang your beliefs about the truth of the Church upon the Pope or any other Catholic's political beliefs or statements. Popes have certainly been wrong about political matters in the past, just as you and I will also be wrong about such matters. The Pope, however, has never been and will never be wrong about doctrine or morality.

dove1967 · #7 Mar 20, '10, 4:17 pm

One (I won't go into the other issues I have with it) of my MAJOR concerns on the "Socialized Medicine" is that my PROLIFE tax dollars are going to be used to fund ABORTIONS! I don't understand how it could be felt that this would be a help to ANYONE more like tying a milestone around their neck.

Mig · #8 Mar 20, '10, 9:35 pm

Look guys, I came here seeking God. Not arguments about socialized health. If you want to go there though, I've only got this to say.

I'll gladly give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.

Caesar didn't create me. God did. When it comes to my life and health, I'll trust Him. Not some government bureaucracy; especially not one ran by people who hate God. If you're too blind to see that, take it up with your Creator.

Mig · #9 Mar 20, '10, 9:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by camerong

I think you have a misunderstanding about how the Pope speaks for Christ. If the Pope thinks that Toyotas are better than Hondas, and says so, that does not mean that Christ believes (and therefore it is true) that Toyotas are better than Hondas.

The Pope only speaks infallibly for Christ when making certain types of statements relating to doctrine or morality. That we (children of God) are morally obligated to provide health care to all people is a moral statement, and as such it could be infallible--though I doubt anyone would debate it. If the Pope says that universal health care is the best way to fulfill this obligation, he is speaking as to his own opinions, not for Christ's.

So don't hang your beliefs about the truth of the Church upon the Pope or any other Catholic's political beliefs or statements. Popes have certainly been wrong about political matters in the past, just as you and I will also be wrong about such matters. The Pope, however, has never been and will never be wrong about doctrine or morality.

Thank you for a direct answer. Perhaps I expect too much from the Pope, for I not only expect infallible doctrine, but exceptional wisdom. If he fails in this, then it isn't only he who fails but also those Church leaders who prayed and placed him into power. Aren't they suppose to be the best of the best, the holiest of the holy? If he and they are not that, then who can I trust?

At a CARM forum, I once stated that I'm a mere fallible human being and am unable to sort out all of the disagreements about Scripture and doctrine. I listened to the Catholics there as they spoke. I believed much of what they said and so came here to hopefully find God, If this Churches leadership might be unwise as you say they might be, then I can only trust in my fallibility again. How have you improved my hope?

Moscati · #10 Mar 21, '10, 4:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mig

Thank you for a direct answer. Perhaps I expect too much from the Pope, for I not only expect infallible doctrine, but exceptional wisdom. If he fails in this, then it isn't only he who fails but also those Church leaders who prayed and placed him into power. Aren't they suppose to be the best of the best, the holiest of the holy? If he and they are not that, then who can I trust?

At a CARM forum, I once stated that I'm a mere fallible human being and am unable to sort out all of the disagreements about Scripture and doctrine. I listened to the Catholics there as they spoke. I believed much of what they said and so came here to hopefully find God, If this Churches leadership might be unwise as you say they might be, then I can only trust in my fallibility again. How have you improved my hope?

Your rationale confuses me. You say you realize that you are a mere fallible human being, and so you were drawn to Catholicism . . . yet you're holding the Pope to your own standard about what is wise? The Pope is only wise if his opinion on healthcare conforms to yours?

camerong · #11 Mar 21, '10, 6:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mig

Thank you for a direct answer. Perhaps I expect too much from the Pope, for I not only expect infallible doctrine, but exceptional wisdom. If he fails in this, then it isn't only he who fails but also those Church leaders who prayed and placed him into power. Aren't they suppose to be the best of the best, the holiest of the holy? If he and they are not that, then who can I trust?

At a CARM forum, I once stated that I'm a mere fallible human being and am unable to sort out all of the disagreements about Scripture and doctrine. I listened to the Catholics there as they spoke. I believed much of what they said and so came here to hopefully find God, If this Churches leadership might be unwise as you say they might be, then I can only trust in my fallibility again. How have you improved my hope?

I suspect, first of all, that the Pope does have exceptional wisdom. I got my degree in religious studies as a protestant. I studied what I would consider the brightest minds in protestantism. They don't come anywhere NEAR the top (or even "good") minds in Catholicism. I'm currently reading a book by PJPII, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, and his treatment of extremely complex philosophical issues and of modern political issues is absolutely unbelievable. I have never read such a brilliant modern writer. And, to boot, I understand the book is primarily his answers to an interview, not a planned and carefully edited book. I have not read as much by the Pope either as Pope or as Cardinal Ratzinger, but what I have read seems certainly in the same league--and by in the same league, I mean leagues and leagues above nearly all other writers in this era or prior ones. This, of course, is not uncommon among Catholic writers; I could name a dozen other Catholic authors that exceed their protestant (or atheist, or Islamic) counterparts by miles. Whether this is because wise people naturally chose Catholicism, or Catholicism makes people wise, I cannot say. Granted, this is my anecdotal experience, and there are exceptions, but I challenge you to read the authors I have read (and add any others) and come to a different conclusion.

Now, extremely wise people can still make mistakes. If you are certain that universal healthcare is a poor choice, that does not mean that someone who supports it cannot be extremely wise. Looking at all the great thinkers throughout history, there is not one that did not make a number of noteworthy mistakes. If you knew that, say, Thomas Aquinas was the head of the Church, you would find him uncommonly wise, no? But he also made mistakes. Or, say, if you knew that Einstein was the head of a physics department, you would think this department extremely wise, no? But Einstein also made significant mistakes.

But more importantly, even if the above things were not true, I still think you can rest assured you have found an infallible source in the Church. Even as a pretty fanatical Catholic, I do not typically trust the Church on prudential issues--there is simply no need to. I don't turn to Christ for political guidance or the like, but for spiritual guidance. And as I and others have said, on spiritual matters, I firmly believe the Church makes no mistakes. You are looking for an infallible source for spirituality; you have found one. It seems perhaps that you are also looking for infallible source for political guidance. Would you agree that even if God existed, and even if Christ was His Church, a source of infallible political guidance would not exist?

I don't think that, when the Pope decides matters of spirituality as we do, by siting down, thinking about it, and simply choosing what seems the best answer, still unsure. I suspect that he prays over the issues, studies them, and comes to the correct answer, knowing that Christ would not have let him come to the wrong one. Through the last 2,000 years, the Church has never made a mistake with an infallible proclamation. If it had, do you not think non-Catholics would constantly use it to prove the pontiff is not, in fact, infallible?

Does this address your question?

Viki63 · #12 Mar 21, '10, 6:39 pm

No, the Pope has not endorsed socialized medicine, or any specific political position on how to fulfill our obligations to one another.

The church tries to stay out of politics, except when they infringe on God's laws, such as in the case of laws allowing abortion. For that reason we are enjoined to carefully study the views of political candidates and avoid voting for those who support abortion. But even then the church does not specifically name candidates that we should vote for or against.

**JimG** · #13 Mar 21, '10, 6:43 pm

I agree with camerong that the present Pope does in fact have exceptional wisdom. But that does not mean that he has the ability to evaluate or to prescribe the political conditions for every nation on the planet, or to evaluate methods of health care delivery. Obviously, that is beyond even his exceptional wisdom.

And further, it is not even part of his charism as leader of the Church. The primary duty of a pope--any pope--exceptional wisdom or none, is to preserve the faith as it was handed down from the Apostles.

Finally, the best socialized health care system in the world will be of no avail if a country devolves into bankruptcy and chaos. And that is well within the parameters of probability for the United States and the globe.

rwoehmke · #14 Mar 21, '10, 6:53 pm

Recent Popes from Leo XIII on have written about the rights of human beings. There is believed to be a universal right of all humans to a job with a living wage, sufficient food, shelter, health care, and for the working man to collective bargaining,i.e. unions. There are various ways of taking care of these human rights. Sometimes it falls to governments to "make it happen" when the actions of smaller units can't get the job done. That is not an endorsement of secular socialism or communism wherein the individual is submerged in the state.

Mig · #15 Mar 21, '10, 7:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moscati

Your rationale confuses me. You say you realize that you are a mere fallible human being, and so you were drawn to Catholicism . . . yet you're holding the Pope to your own standard about what is wise? The Pope is only wise if his opinion on healthcare conforms to yours?

If the Pope has contributed to the anti-God, immoral, baby killing, secular socialism that's is rabidly taking over Western civilization, then yes, I take issue with him. I came here only to find out what the Pope has or has not done to stop the spread of this world wide disease.

If I'm going to be Catholic I must know I'm following good men, and as naive as it may sound, I want the Pope to my hero, a man I can, if necessary, follow to the cross. God's chosen voice should be no less.