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  #1  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:35 am
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default What makes a marriage invalid?

Is any wedding not in a Catholic church invalid? What about protestants or people of other religions getting married? What about if someone was baptized catholic but left the church and was getting married in a protestant church? What if both parties were baptized and confirmed Catholic but were married outside the church without a priest?
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  #2  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:45 am
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
Is any wedding not in a Catholic church invalid?
If either party is Catholic and no dispensation was given, yes it is invalid.
Quote:
What about protestants or people of other religions getting married?
See CCC quote below. If both parties are free to marry, it is a valid marriage.
Quote:
What about if someone was baptized catholic but left the church and was getting married in a protestant church? What if both parties were baptized and confirmed Catholic but were married outside the church without a priest?
Catholics, whether lapsed or not, are bond to the Catholic form of the marriage cermony, unless granted a dispensation.

From the CCC:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCC, 1625
The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent; "to be free" means:

- not being under constraint; - not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law.
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  #3  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:49 am
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Is my marriage valid...here are the details.

We are both baptized and confirmed Catholic. She ended up getting pregnant and we got married while she was pregnant. We were living together before we got married. We were married by my friend's mom (who is a non denominational person who marries people) at my wife's parents house. Is that valid?
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  #4  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:50 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
Is any wedding not in a Catholic church invalid?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
What about protestants or people of other religions getting married?
In general, non-Catholics marry validly when they marry in their own faith tradition or civilly. This presumes freedom to marry (i.e., no prior marriages, etc). The Catholic Church does recognize other religion's requirements for form-- for example, the Eastern Orthodox do not recognize any marriages of their own members unless conducted by an Orthodox priest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
What about if someone was baptized catholic but left the church and was getting married in a protestant church?
A person who is baptized in the Catholic Church is bound by the Catholic form of marriage. To marry a protestant in their place of worship requires a dispensation from Catholic form from the Bishop in order to be considered valid by the Catholic Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
What if both parties were baptized and confirmed Catholic but were married outside the church without a priest?
They are in an invalid marriage.
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Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #5  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:52 am
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

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Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
They are in an invalid marriage.
lol, ok, looks like I am in an invalid marriage. My parish priest actually recommended that route and said I should wait a few years before getting married in the Catholic Church.
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  #6  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:53 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
Is my marriage valid...here are the details.

We are both baptized and confirmed Catholic. She ended up getting pregnant and we got married while she was pregnant. We were living together before we got married. We were married by my friend's mom (who is a non denominational person who marries people) at my wife's parents house. Is that valid?
As Catholics, you are bound by the Catholic form of marriage. From what you have stated, you did not follow the requirements for a valid marriage. Therefore, you would be in an invalid marriage.

Go see your priest, and discuss convalidation of the marriage.
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Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #7  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:54 am
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
As Catholics, you are bound by the Catholic form of marriage. From what you have stated, you did not follow the requirements for a valid marriage. Therefore, you would be in an invalid marriage.

Go see your priest, and discuss convalidation of the marriage.
Yeah, he said that we should wait a few years for it. To be honest I don't know if my wife and I are ever going to get around to it.
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  #8  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:56 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
lol, ok, looks like I am in an invalid marriage. My parish priest actually recommended that route and said I should wait a few years before getting married in the Catholic Church.
Sounds as if you got some very poor advice. I do not know why a priest woul "recommend" that a Catholic commit a number of serious transgressions against Church law and live in an objective state of mortal sin in an invalid marriage.
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Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #9  
Old Mar 25, '10, 11:57 am
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Sounds as if you got some very poor advice. I do not know why a priest woul "recommend" that a Catholic commit a number of serious transgressions against Church law and live in an objective state of mortal sin in an invalid marriage.
I think he just wanted to avoid a divorce.
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  #10  
Old Mar 25, '10, 12:43 pm
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joandarc2008 joandarc2008 is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

There is not Catholic Divorce. There is anullment if the couple was not married validly which you weren't from the sounds of it. It sounds to me like what the Priest recommended to you was within the letter of the law but not the Spirit. For the most part it sounds like this is where you ended up - although you don't sound as if you meant to:

Quote:
2391 Some today claim a "right to a trial marriage" where there is an intention of getting married later. However firm the purpose of those who engage in premature sexual relations may be, "the fact is that such liaisons can scarcely ensure mutual sincerity and fidelity in a relationship between a man and a woman, nor, especially, can they protect it from inconstancy of desires or whim."183 Carnal union is morally legitimate only when a definitive community of life between a man and woman has been established. Human love does not tolerate "trial marriages." It demands a total and definitive gift of persons to one another.184
Right now you are not free to participate in Eucharist in order to correct this you can do one of two things:

1) Go to Reconcilliation and then live as brother and sister

2) Get your marriage convalidated

I would recommend doing both - in that order. Go see another priest if this one will not work with you - How can you bring up your children in the Faith if you and your wife are not even in communion with the Church.
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  #11  
Old Mar 25, '10, 12:48 pm
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joandarc2008 View Post
I would recommend doing both - in that order. Go see another priest if this one will not work with you - How can you bring up your children in the Faith if you and your wife are not even in communion with the Church.
I am not too sure how dedicated we are to bringing my child up in the faith. I want him to make his own choices. I will explain my beliefs and how those beliefs differ from other people. I will explain that some people don't even believe in any God and there are decent points on both sides. I will then let him choose his own beliefs without trying to push Catholicism or anything on him. The last thing I want to do is teach Catholicism as if it were 100% true, no doubt about it, and anyone that believes differently is wrong and misguided.
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  #12  
Old Mar 25, '10, 1:06 pm
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Spencerian Spencerian is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
I am not too sure how dedicated we are to bringing my child up in the faith. I want him to make his own choices. I will explain my beliefs and how those beliefs differ from other people. I will explain that some people don't even believe in any God and there are decent points on both sides. I will then let him choose his own beliefs without trying to push Catholicism or anything on him. The last thing I want to do is teach Catholicism as if it were 100% true, no doubt about it, and anyone that believes differently is wrong and misguided.
Hi.

A question for you, and I will try to be as charitable as I can.

Do you really believe in the precepts of your faith, or are you just following only the rules of your faith that "feel right" or are appropriate for you?

I don't want to scare you or increase your apprehensions about being a Catholic, or joining the faith or maintaining your faith. However, as an adult, you have something that your child doesn't have--experience and truth.

A child is susceptible to many dangers. Obviously you would not let a ten-year child experiment with dangerous recreational drugs or play in the middle of a busy street, for you know from your experience, from the truth you have gained, that such behaviors are not only dangerous but can have permanent repercussions.

If you are true to yourself and your beliefs in God, specifically the tenets of Catholicism, why would you let your child play with the dangers of non-Catholic beliefs, knowing that such experimentation would not be wise? Why would not you not share what is true in your heart about the Church and its faith to your own children, without giving them a "cafeteria" menu of faiths and their pros and cons?

Metaphorically speaking, a child will often prefer pizza over a casserole, which may be healthier. If you start with a pattern of appeasement, it's hard to bring a child back to truth--much of it which will not be pretty or easy to understand as what "easier" options you give to them before they are ready to understand the significance of choice.

This isn't an accusation, of course. I just thought it best to point out that there is a certain sense of contradiction in your motives, however well-intentioned they may be in giving a child some freedom. A child, however, will abuse freedom of choice until they grow in experience and truth. Establishing your child in the Catholic faith is not a yoke, but protection from error. From truth comes real choice, choice that does not lead a person to ruin, short-term or long-term. God bless.
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  #13  
Old Mar 25, '10, 1:11 pm
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joandarc2008 joandarc2008 is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople View Post
I am not too sure how dedicated we are to bringing my child up in the faith. I want him to make his own choices. I will explain my beliefs and how those beliefs differ from other people. I will explain that some people don't even believe in any God and there are decent points on both sides. I will then let him choose his own beliefs without trying to push Catholicism or anything on him. The last thing I want to do is teach Catholicism as if it were 100% true, no doubt about it, and anyone that believes differently is wrong and misguided.
Actually it is your duty - not only in a Catholic marriage - but in a Catholic household at all it is your duty to bring them in to the Eucharistic community which means the three initiation sacraments: Baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation.

Quote:
The duties of parents

2221 The fecundity of conjugal love cannot be reduced solely to the procreation of children, but must extend to their moral education and their spiritual formation. "The role of parents in education is of such importance that it is almost impossible to provide an adequate substitute."29 The right and the duty of parents to educate their children are primordial and inalienable.30

2222 Parents must regard their children as children of God and respect them as human persons. Showing themselves obedient to the will of the Father in heaven, they educate their children to fulfill God's law.

2223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones."31 Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them:


He who loves his son will not spare the rod. . . . He who disciplines his son will profit by him.32
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.33

2224 The home is the natural environment for initiating a human being into solidarity and communal responsibilities. Parents should teach children to avoid the compromising and degrading influences which threaten human societies.

2225 Through the grace of the sacrament of marriage, parents receive the responsibility and privilege of evangelizing their children. Parents should initiate their children at an early age into the mysteries of the faith of which they are the "first heralds" for their children. They should associate them from their tenderest years with the life of the Church.34 A wholesome family life can foster interior dispositions that are a genuine preparation for a living faith and remain a support for it throughout one's life.

Quote:
2226 Education in the faith by the parents should begin in the child's earliest years. This already happens when family members help one another to grow in faith by the witness of a Christian life in keeping with the Gospel. Family catechesis precedes, accompanies, and enriches other forms of instruction in the faith. Parents have the mission of teaching their children to pray and to discover their vocation as children of God.35 The parish is the Eucharistic community and the heart of the liturgical life of Christian families; it is a privileged place for the catechesis of children and parents.
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Last edited by joandarc2008; Mar 25, '10 at 1:12 pm. Reason: Formatting
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  #14  
Old Mar 25, '10, 1:50 pm
Phemie Phemie is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Sounds as if you got some very poor advice. I do not know why a priest would "recommend" that a Catholic commit a number of serious transgressions against Church law and live in an objective state of mortal sin in an invalid marriage.
Maybe because in the situation described it would still be an invalid marriage? Lack of full consent due to the pregnancy? My present pastor's attitude to these situations is "Well, when (not if) this 'marriage' fails they won't have to petition for a decree of nullity."
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  #15  
Old Mar 25, '10, 2:11 pm
hellopeople hellopeople is offline
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Default Re: What makes a marriage invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
Hi.

A question for you, and I will try to be as charitable as I can.

Do you really believe in the precepts of your faith, or are you just following only the rules of your faith that "feel right" or are appropriate for you?

I don't want to scare you or increase your apprehensions about being a Catholic, or joining the faith or maintaining your faith. However, as an adult, you have something that your child doesn't have--experience and truth.

A child is susceptible to many dangers. Obviously you would not let a ten-year child experiment with dangerous recreational drugs or play in the middle of a busy street, for you know from your experience, from the truth you have gained, that such behaviors are not only dangerous but can have permanent repercussions.

If you are true to yourself and your beliefs in God, specifically the tenets of Catholicism, why would you let your child play with the dangers of non-Catholic beliefs, knowing that such experimentation would not be wise? Why would not you not share what is true in your heart about the Church and its faith to your own children, without giving them a "cafeteria" menu of faiths and their pros and cons?

Metaphorically speaking, a child will often prefer pizza over a casserole, which may be healthier. If you start with a pattern of appeasement, it's hard to bring a child back to truth--much of it which will not be pretty or easy to understand as what "easier" options you give to them before they are ready to understand the significance of choice.

This isn't an accusation, of course. I just thought it best to point out that there is a certain sense of contradiction in your motives, however well-intentioned they may be in giving a child some freedom. A child, however, will abuse freedom of choice until they grow in experience and truth. Establishing your child in the Catholic faith is not a yoke, but protection from error. From truth comes real choice, choice that does not lead a person to ruin, short-term or long-term. God bless.
I didn't say that I was going to bring him to a mosque or synagogue and make him practice other faiths. I just said that I don't want him thinking that Catholicism is 100% the one true religion and that everything is wrong (if he comes to that conclusion by himself, so be it, but I don't want him coming to that conclusion purely because I told him that and he trusts me). I want to teach him my beliefs, but also the beliefs of others and show him that you should not discriminate. Really, none of us know for sure what is right until we die, and I want him to know that.

I especially don't want to teach him that God existing is a FACT. I believe God exists, and I have some good (albeit personal) reasons for it, but many intelligent people doubt that God exists. I want to make sure he understands this from a young age. I want to be completely open with him so he doesn't follow a religion just because I told him to.
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