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  #1  
Old Apr 11, '10, 6:49 am
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Default Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

On another thread, I have been in discussion with someone who claims that, if a marriage is annulled, the fromer spouses are guilty of "fornication", breaking the seventh commandment.

Here is the link
Look down a couple of posts to find our discussion.

Of course I say this is not true.

Could someone provide church teaching in this matter?

Peace
James
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  #2  
Old Apr 11, '10, 7:07 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

To commit a sin you have to have full knowledge that what you're doing is a sin. In this case one would need full knowledge that one's marriage was invalid.

How does one have 'full knowledge' that one isn't in a valid marriage? By having a written determination from the marriage tribunal that it isn't valid - ie a decree of nullity, aka an ANNULMENT! Full knowledge, and hence the mortal sin of fornication, is thus only possible at the end of the annulment process, when the decree is produced, not before or during.

Your gut feeling about the validity or otherwise of your marriage is irrelevant, all marriages going through the annulment process are presumed valid unless and until a tribunal finally determines otherwise.

Can't be bothered reading the link, but if your friend is suggesting couples who get an annulment and sleep together after it's granted are committing fornication, then your friend is right. If your friend is suggesting that couples who've applied for their marriage to be investigated and sleep together during that investigation are fornicating, then they're dead wrong.
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  #3  
Old Apr 11, '10, 7:50 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

My friend is suggesting that every conjugal act during the marriage constituted fornication since, by obtaining a degree of nullity, the marriage never occurred.

Peace
James
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  #4  
Old Apr 11, '10, 10:13 am
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
On another thread, I have been in discussion with someone who claims that, if a marriage is annulled, the fromer spouses are guilty of "fornication", breaking the seventh commandment.

Here is the link
Look down a couple of posts to find our discussion.

Of course I say this is not true.

Could someone provide church teaching in this matter?

Peace
James
No, that is not correct. As long as they reasonably assumed that they were validly Married and didn't know otherwise. Now if they knew that they had attempted Marriage invalidly from the start or from some point during the relationship that is another case.
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  #5  
Old Apr 11, '10, 10:19 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

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Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
My friend is suggesting that every conjugal act during the marriage constituted fornication since, by obtaining a degree of nullity, the marriage never occurred.

Peace
James
Nope. Lily and Bro Rich are giving great info here. The "married" individuals didn't have full knowledge, so there was no sin. My pastor explained just that to me when I was petitioning for nullity.
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  #6  
Old Apr 11, '10, 1:41 pm
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

Hi everyone. I am the friend of which he spoke. I had actually started the post from the quote below after he posted a link for me to this thread. I thought it might be useful to this discussion to state my position on this issue a bit more clearly for this thread, as After reading how he started this one, I believe that I was not nearly so clear as I intended to be.


Quote:
I earlier retracted my suggestion that it was sinful, so let me be clear that unless the couple was willfully "playing" at being married, (which would surprise me to discover were the case in even 0.01% of the cases), there would be no sin involved, and no need whatsoever for guilt.

The truth, and so I agree with you that it is, that there is no guilt in such situations, does not change the equally valid statement that I asserted. You were not married to this other woman. You did engage in sex with her. There is no guilt, and yet the fact remains that what you did was engage in sex outside of marriage. This is not an accusation of guilt in any way, shape or fashion, as you clearly believed yourself (as virtually all couples do) to be validly married to this woman. But, in the eyes of the Church, and therefore in the eyes of God, you were not. Hence my assertion that you, and many other such couples, were, in actual fact, engaging in sex outside of the bounds of actual Sacramental Matrimony.... which is the definition of fornication.

Let me try to explain with a metaphor. Let us suppose that you are one of the few Americans who actually obeys all posted speed limits. Let us also suppose that your next door neighbor is a police officer. At a party one night, the topic of speed limits comes up, and you proudly announce that you always obey the speed limit. This neighbor, who has been behind you in his squad car on any number occasions, points out that while you do now obey all speed limits, in your last car, you habitually went 7 miles per hour over the speed limit. You point out that your speedometer in that car always showed you going exactly the posted speed limit. Who's right? I would submit that while you would have no reason to feel guilt, in actual fact, you were routinely exceeding the speed limit by 7 miles per hour, and hence, breaking the speed limit law. Are you guilty? No. You believed, and had every reason to believe, that you were obeying the law. Was the fault yours? No. The fault was with the automobile manufacturer. But that does not change the fact that you were breaking the law.

Similarly with the case of an annulled marriage. Did you believe you were married? Yes. Is there guilt on your part? No. Now, with hindsight, you recognize that you were never married to this woman, but at the time, you were fully convinced that you were, and therefore you were doing what is right to do in the circumstances you believed yourself to be in. But that does not change the fact that you were not actually married, and that the action was technically breaking God's law. Do I believe that there is any guilt? No. Do I believe that spiritual damage was caused? Yes.

I would point out also that the reason that I brought this up to begin with was to point out that while annulments may help us to rectify past wrongs and allow for us to move forward with a clean slate and a clear conscience, that there remain consequences to our actions. You are, from what I gather, in your FIRST marriage, from God's perspective, as is your wife. Yet, neither of you were completely chaste (albeit unknowingly) leading up to your wedding. This means that when you went to your wedding bed with each other, you each carried with you experiences which, had you never gone through the motions with your prior lawful (but not Godly) spouses, you would not have had. In other words, you were not virgins up until the day of your wedding. This is unfortunate, and the real reason that I brought it up to begin with. On the other hand, praise GOD that you have found the Wife that God intended for you, and that you have reconciled yourself with the Church.
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  #7  
Old Apr 11, '10, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

I am a child of a marriage that was annulled. I was worried/hurt about being illegitimate as I equated an annulment to how it sometimes is used when there is no consumation of the marriage. I was just coming back to the church--actually I hadn't made the decision to yet. Below is the response I got from Father ____.

"Your parents’ annulment in no way indicated that a marriage did not take place or make the children illegitimate or anything of that sort, but rather that the bond of marriage was defective, and that something was missing at the time of their marriage that kept it from being a full union in the eyes of God. An annulment doesn’t deny that there was a marriage per se, but that something in the sacramental character was lacking."


Therefore I don't believe that annullment means that the couple was living in sin during that time or cohabitating. Because a marriage did take place.
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  #8  
Old Apr 11, '10, 9:19 pm
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie View Post
I am a child of a marriage that was annulled. I was worried/hurt about being illegitimate as I equated an annulment to how it sometimes is used when there is no consumation of the marriage. I was just coming back to the church--actually I hadn't made the decision to yet. Below is the response I got from Father ____.

"Your parents’ annulment in no way indicated that a marriage did not take place or make the children illegitimate or anything of that sort, but rather that the bond of marriage was defective, and that something was missing at the time of their marriage that kept it from being a full union in the eyes of God. An annulment doesn’t deny that there was a marriage per se, but that something in the sacramental character was lacking."


Therefore I don't believe that annullment means that the couple was living in sin during that time or cohabitating. Because a marriage did take place.
1. From what little I know, most modern legal systems have, for some time (probably for centuries) provided specific protections for the legitimacy of children who would otherwise have been legitimate but for the annulment. That is, generally, legitimacy is unaffected by annulments, though it might be affected by other things. As for canon law, I'm not sure what the position is. I suspect there is no position at all, simply because legitimacy is not an issue under canon law.

2. However, the continued legitimacy of children of an annulled marriage does not mean the couple was not living in sin. Whether the couple were living in sin depends on factors unrelated to the legal protection of legitimacy. Annulment happens because of, among other things, the presence of certain impediments. It may well be possible for the couple or one of the couple to be living in sin if, for example, they were aware of the impediment and its implications. The two issues are totally unrelated.
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  #9  
Old Apr 11, '10, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillsteven View Post
Hi everyone. I am the friend of which he spoke. I had actually started the post from the quote below after he posted a link for me to this thread. I thought it might be useful to this discussion to state my position on this issue a bit more clearly for this thread, as After reading how he started this one, I believe that I was not nearly so clear as I intended to be.
I think you are correct. Objectively, fornication took place, but there is no culpability.

It is like going to Mass and the priest has the intent not to confect the Eucharist. Objectively, everyone who receives commits idolatry, but there is no culpability on them.
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  #10  
Old Apr 12, '10, 4:28 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillsteven View Post
Hi everyone. I am the friend of which he spoke. I had actually started the post from the quote below after he posted a link for me to this thread. I thought it might be useful to this discussion to state my position on this issue a bit more clearly for this thread, as After reading how he started this one, I believe that I was not nearly so clear as I intended to be.
hillsteven,
I apologize for being adament about this, but perhaps I am highly sensative because I was in, what turned out to be, and invalid marriage for nearly 19 years. Your position is that, during all of those 18+ years, each time I engaged in sexual relations with my (then) wife, I was committing an act of "fornication", a sinful act. This I cannot accept. Even with the retractions and alterations you had made since your intital comments on the other thread, I remain convinced that the acts were not even "objectively" fornication do to the fact that both parties - as well as the church - believed the marriage to be valid at the time.

People who go through the horrors of a failed marriage, and then submit themselves and their marriage to the scrutiny of the Annulment Process, know what I am talking about.

The last thing we need is for someone to tell us - after the fact - that we had been "objectively living in sin" all the time we were with that person.
Such a view only opens up old wounds and serves no practical purpose.

That is why I have been saying that I want to see something dcoumented from canon law or another official source of Catholic teaching that supports your postion.

As to your example of the speed limit, the person used the instrument given him and never exceeded the speed limit. I'm also sure that he knew that his neighbor's squad car was behind him many times. Since the neighbor (An official charged with enforcing speed limits) never pulled him over he had no reason to concern himself with whether he was "objectively" over the speed limit. He believed he was legal, his speedometer told him he was legal, and the authority charged with checking this also told him he was legal (by not "pulling him over"). So by every objective measure available to him, the man was NOT exceeding the speed limit.

Same with my marriage. The Church believed the marriage was valid, my wife and I both believed the marriage was valid (though troubled), our families believed the marriage was valid. Every objective measure told us that it was valid. We struggled for many years to make that marrige work. Therefore sex within that marriage was valid.

It was only after the breakdown of the marriage that, under the scrutiny of the annulment process, it was discovered that there was an impediment to our being able to consent fully to the marriage. This impediment would likely never have come up during the marriage, even during councelling and such. That is how deeply it was buried. So deeply in fact that I believed, initially, that I would not be able to get an annulment and so did not apply for one until 13 years later. It was only by the patience and Grace of God that I was able to come to terms with these issues, received an annulment and have my second marriage convalidated in The Church. Praise God for His Mercy on this sinner.

So now - Perhaps you will understand that this is not just a matter of "academics" for me, or for anyone who has been through it. It is a matter of real, painful, spiritual history and growth. Couch it in whatever terms you care to, but the facts remain - There was no "fornication" with my (then) wife - period. That is, unless you can demonstrate by official, documented, church teaching that there was. In which case I will happily apologize to you and hurry off to confession to clear the matter from my soul and my conscience.

Peace
James
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  #11  
Old Apr 12, '10, 5:22 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
hillsteven,
I apologize for being adament about this, but perhaps I am highly sensative because I was in, what turned out to be, and invalid marriage for nearly 19 years. Your position is that, during all of those 18+ years, each time I engaged in sexual relations with my (then) wife, I was committing an act of "fornication", a sinful act. This I cannot accept. Even with the retractions and alterations you had made since your intital comments on the other thread, I remain convinced that the acts were not even "objectively" fornication do to the fact that both parties - as well as the church - believed the marriage to be valid at the time.

People who go through the horrors of a failed marriage, and then submit themselves and their marriage to the scrutiny of the Annulment Process, know what I am talking about.

The last thing we need is for someone to tell us - after the fact - that we had been "objectively living in sin" all the time we were with that person.
Such a view only opens up old wounds and serves no practical purpose.

That is why I have been saying that I want to see something dcoumented from canon law or another official source of Catholic teaching that supports your postion.

As to your example of the speed limit, the person used the instrument given him and never exceeded the speed limit. I'm also sure that he knew that his neighbor's squad car was behind him many times. Since the neighbor (An official charged with enforcing speed limits) never pulled him over he had no reason to concern himself with whether he was "objectively" over the speed limit. He believed he was legal, his speedometer told him he was legal, and the authority charged with checking this also told him he was legal (by not "pulling him over"). So by every objective measure available to him, the man was NOT exceeding the speed limit.

Same with my marriage. The Church believed the marriage was valid, my wife and I both believed the marriage was valid (though troubled), our families believed the marriage was valid. Every objective measure told us that it was valid. We struggled for many years to make that marrige work. Therefore sex within that marriage was valid.

It was only after the breakdown of the marriage that, under the scrutiny of the annulment process, it was discovered that there was an impediment to our being able to consent fully to the marriage. This impediment would likely never have come up during the marriage, even during councelling and such. That is how deeply it was buried. So deeply in fact that I believed, initially, that I would not be able to get an annulment and so did not apply for one until 13 years later. It was only by the patience and Grace of God that I was able to come to terms with these issues, received an annulment and have my second marriage convalidated in The Church. Praise God for His Mercy on this sinner.

So now - Perhaps you will understand that this is not just a matter of "academics" for me, or for anyone who has been through it. It is a matter of real, painful, spiritual history and growth. Couch it in whatever terms you care to, but the facts remain - There was no "fornication" with my (then) wife - period. That is, unless you can demonstrate by official, documented, church teaching that there was. In which case I will happily apologize to you and hurry off to confession to clear the matter from my soul and my conscience.

Peace
James
I sincerely apologize that this has been such a painful issue for you. The details that you provided actually help to prove my point, however. you are absolutely correct in that there was no possible way for the speeder in my example, or you in your actual life, to realize that a law was being broken. This is why there was no actual SIN in what you did, which I have mentioned any number of times since Saturday morning. But the fact remains, that a law was broken, both in my example, and in your life. In the example of my speeder, one could argue that since it is illegal for an officer to pull you over for speeding unless you are exceeding the speed limit by more than 10 MPH, the neighbor didn't even have cause to mention it, which is why I chose the 7MPH example. Was the man in actual fact speeding? Yes. Did he have any reasonable means to know it? no. The police neighbor didn't even have a legal cause to pull him over! Were you, or anyone in that situation breaking a commandment? yes. did you have any reasonable means to know that? Of course not, hence the fact that no sin had been committed.

...So why bring it up in the first place? Because an opportunity for grace, however small, was blocked, and damage, however small, was done. This combination was one small chink in your spiritual armor, and an opportunity for Satan, however small, to get in and work in your life. A single grain of sand may not seem like much, and yet that is what it takes to start a pearl. This is one more reason why we should, as I have also stated, be better witnesses to others, especially those who have not yet entered into marriage, to help them understand more clearly the Sacramental nature of Matrimony. As much pain and heartache as you had to endure, would it not make sense to use that evil (the heartache and pain) as a witnessing tool to others, that they might be spared from that?

Incidentally, I brought this example up with one of our deacons yesterday, and he agreed with me. Both that there is no sin here, and that that does not mean that an opportunity for grace had been blocked. (That was actually his contribution, not my own). We (my wife and I) are looking to have my priest over for dinner sometime in the next few weeks, and I will bring it up with him as well.
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Old Apr 12, '10, 5:45 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

This has devolved into a discussion not unlike an OSAS debate.

You insist that a commandment was broken, but of course I could not know that so therefore I could not have sinned.

It sounds a bit like the OSAS proponent saying those who are saved cannot lose their salvation, and if someone turns away from God it is because they were not truly saved in the first place but of course we cannot know how is truly saved until after death.

Well let me just say this. Where the "rubber meets the road" is whether sin was committed or not. Since sin was not committed, there seems little need to bring it up. Especially now that you realize it can be a sincerely hurtful subject to those who have been through the experience.

Peace
James
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Old Apr 12, '10, 6:20 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
The last thing we need is for someone to tell us - after the fact - that we had been "objectively living in sin" all the time we were with that person.
This is why euphemisms are dangerous. You weren't living in sin. There was no sin, only sexual relations between unmarried persons.

...

Quote:
Therefore sex within that marriage was valid.
Sex is not a sacrament. You can certainly say that it was not sinful, but validity is not a quality that describes sex.

...

Quote:
In which case I will happily apologize to you and hurry off to confession to clear the matter from my soul and my conscience.
There is no need to confess, as there was no sin.
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Old Apr 12, '10, 6:57 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

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Originally Posted by Spirithound View Post
This is why euphemisms are dangerous. You weren't living in sin. There was no sin, only sexual relations between unmarried persons.
Ask any priest if, "sex between unmarried persons is a sin", and see what he says.


Quote:
There is no need to confess, as there was no sin.
Then what benefit was there in bringing the subject up in the first place.

Peace
James
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Old Apr 12, '10, 9:04 am
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Default Re: Annulment - Was sex during the marriage "fornication"?

See below quote from a couple of posts ago if you happened to miss it. Hope this answers your question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillsteven View Post
...So why bring it up in the first place? Because an opportunity for grace, however small, was blocked, and damage, however small, was done. This combination was one small chink in your spiritual armor, and an opportunity for Satan, however small, to get in and work in your life. A single grain of sand may not seem like much, and yet that is what it takes to start a pearl. This is one more reason why we should, as I have also stated, be better witnesses to others, especially those who have not yet entered into marriage, to help them understand more clearly the Sacramental nature of Matrimony. As much pain and heartache as you had to endure, would it not make sense to use that evil (the heartache and pain) as a witnessing tool to others, that they might be spared from that?
Again, I do sincerely apologize for what has obviously been a painful topic for you.
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