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  #91  
Old Apr 18, '10, 8:02 pm
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Bengoshi Bengoshi is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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Originally Posted by kage_ar View Post
You have a bad translation there.

The actual word was except for "an unlawful marriage" - that means invalid, and validity can only be determined by the tribunal.

May you find the full Truth in the Holy Catholic Church.
I'm sorry but you're the one with the bad translation. The Greek word used was πορνείας (porneias), which may be translated as "marital unfaithfulness" or "sexual immorality." This is where we got the word "(porn)ography" from.

I already have the full truth. It's in the Bible.
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  #92  
Old Apr 18, '10, 8:58 pm
kage_ar kage_ar is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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Originally Posted by Bengoshi View Post

I already have the full truth. It's in the Bible.

The Bible tells us what is the pillar and foundation of Truth.... do you know what it is?????????
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  #93  
Old Apr 18, '10, 9:40 pm
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Bengoshi Bengoshi is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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The Bible tells us what is the pillar and foundation of Truth.... do you know what it is?????????
Yes, it's the Church, but it doesn't say that it is the SOURCE of Truth. Jesus is. By the way, I am a member of His Church. The Universal (Catholic) Church made up of believers everywhere.

You didn't address my comment about the passage though...
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  #94  
Old Apr 18, '10, 10:17 pm
rick43235 rick43235 is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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Originally Posted by Bengoshi View Post
You didn't address my comment about the passage though...
That's because you proved that she has been relying on an incorrect translation. I'm sure that fact makes her very uncomfortable.
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  #95  
Old Apr 18, '10, 10:18 pm
ThyKingdomCome ThyKingdomCome is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengoshi View Post
I'm sorry but you're the one with the bad translation. The Greek word used was πορνείας (porneias), which may be translated as "marital unfaithfulness" or "sexual immorality." This is where we got the word "(porn)ography" from.

I already have the full truth. It's in the Bible.
Interesting article about this topic:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007bt.asp
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  #96  
Old Apr 19, '10, 12:17 am
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Bengoshi Bengoshi is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome View Post
Interesting article about this topic:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007bt.asp
"There are a number of problems with this. First among them is that the exceptive clauses do not appear in the parallel passages in Mark and Luke. In Mark 10:11–12, Jesus says only, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." Likewise, Luke 16:18 says, "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."

This is striking. How could Mark and Luke, writing for the Greco-Roman world, omit the one, glaring exception that allows remarriage after divorce? Adultery and sexual sins were rampant in the Roman culture. Mark and Luke would have realized that their audiences needed to know about the exception even more than the Jewish audience for which Matthew wrote."


What a convenient excuse. Is James Akn trying to pit the Gospel writers against each other? That's exactly why there are 4 Gospels instead of one, to supply those that are lacking in the others, because not one Gospel contains everything that is needed for us to know. Even without this exception being present in Mark, Luke, and Paul's writings, it has already been provided for by Matthew; and to say that it shouldn't be the case is pitting Scripture against Scripture.

Also, notice that Akin uses the term "probably" a lot. Meaning, his explanations are merely probable opnions and not necessarily that of the clear message of Matthew 19.

"A third possibility is that the Greek term used for "unchastity"— porneia—is being used in a special sense. For example, some have taken it to refer to unchaste behavior before the marriage is consummated. At that point, it is possible to dissolve the marriage, for marriages become indissoluble only when they are consummated."

This explanation is clearly speculative. Just notice the language used.
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  #97  
Old Apr 19, '10, 8:41 am
kage_ar kage_ar is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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Originally Posted by rick43235 View Post
That's because you proved that she has been relying on an incorrect translation. I'm sure that fact makes her very uncomfortable.

Dearie, I am a convert who can go toe to toe with every prooftexter out there.

I have a life, a family, three jobs, volunteering, I don't lurk on line 24X7.

I will refer you to:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Perm..._Matrimony.asp
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  #98  
Old Apr 19, '10, 9:03 am
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Mary Gail 36 Mary Gail 36 is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

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Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome View Post
For the sake of accuracy, let me make one correction about the above part of your list. It is true that they are living in a state of adultery. And it is sinful. And yes, this level of sin is bad enough to be a mortal sin. HOWEVER, mortal sin requires three elements:
1-the sin needs to be serious (this qualifies)
2-the sin needs to be consentual (they aren't accidentally getting married, so this qualifies)
3-the sinner needs to have full knowledge that it is a serious sin. - here is where we can't say. The couple likely doesn't understand that this is a serious sin, or even a sin at all. They do know that the OP thinks it's wrong, but that's not the same as them understanding the sin. So I would say that for this couple, because they probably lack the 3rd requirement, there's a chance it may not be a MORTAL sin. Which means, we can't say that they WILL suffer damnation. They may be RISKING damnation, but we are in NO position to say what the state of their soul is so specifically.

We can say all of the other things, not by our own whims, but by our reading and hearing what the Church has told us. We can judge that this situation is objectively wrong. Period. But we can't go beyond judging the action itself. It is for God to judge a person's soul, and for God to be merciful in whatever ways he sees fit.

Unless, of course the previous marriages were invalid. We couldn't know that. They don't have marriage tribunals in their faith to help discern. We have them in our faith.

Only God knows really in those scenarios.

Our marriage tribunals don't grant annulments. They discern what was lacking when contracting the marriage to make it invalid.

I had posted a link from EWTN written by Michelle Arnold. I think it's worth reading.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showres...DESC&start_at=
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  #99  
Old Apr 19, '10, 11:23 am
rick43235 rick43235 is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kage_ar View Post
Dearie, I am a convert who can go toe to toe with every prooftexter out there.

I have a life, a family, three jobs, volunteering, I don't lurk on line 24X7.

I will refer you to:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Perm..._Matrimony.asp
Sweetie,

Congratulations on your life, family, three jobs, and volunteering. Good to know that I don't have to worry about you. Regarding your link...just more of the same. Can't say that I'm impressed.

Now, you strike me as a "have-to-have-the-last-word" kind of gal. Go ahead and have it. I'm through with you.
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  #100  
Old Apr 19, '10, 1:13 pm
ThyKingdomCome ThyKingdomCome is offline
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Default Re: Can I be a best man at a non-Catholic wedding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36 View Post
Unless, of course the previous marriages were invalid. We couldn't know that. They don't have marriage tribunals in their faith to help discern. We have them in our faith.

Only God knows really in those scenarios.

Our marriage tribunals don't grant annulments. They discern what was lacking when contracting the marriage to make it invalid.
Very good point. Michelle Arnold uses the term "presumptively invalid." In the case of the OP's friend, we would presume this upcoming marrage to be invalid because we would first presume the first ones to be valid in the first place. The church, in it's practice errs on the side of validity, which is why a tribunal would be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36 View Post
I had posted a link from EWTN written by Michelle Arnold. I think it's worth reading.

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showres...DESC&start_at=
That's a good link. Thanks for sharing. I hope I'm not being a broken record, but I want to point out again, that each of the articles that are discussing this topic, are always explaining the prudence of attending a presumptively invalid wedding. Being an official witness (meaning being in the wedding party) at a presumptively invalid wedding is a very different matter, in which out participation carries more weight, and which requires a much stronger level of our cooperation in a "presumptive sin" (I know I made a phrase up), and therefore is not left up to prudential judgment.

Often our dilemma is whether or not to attend, in which case, all of these links can be very helpful in reminding us that we don't just have to snap and say "no" but that we can consider other factors. For those whose dilemma is about being in the wedding party, it's more black and white.
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