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  #1  
Old Apr 19, '10, 11:28 pm
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Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
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Default If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

I some questions for shroud. If the shroud of Turin is unique. What makes it unique?

1. Where all those who were Crucified in the 1st Century scourge? If not, then the shroud is not unique. Explain.


2. If the shroud is the only cloth that depicts a crucified man that is describe in the 4 Gospels, is it possible that it is the burial cloth of Jesus?

3. How come it is the only one of its kind and we find no other relic like it?
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Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #2  
Old Apr 19, '10, 11:32 pm
Catholicnow Catholicnow is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
I some questions for shroud. If the shroud of Turin is unique. What makes it unique?

1. Where all those who were Crucified in the 1st Century scourge? If not, then the shroud is not unique. Explain.
From watching the documentaries it is hard to find a crucified person, I am not sure if I understand your first question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
2. If the shroud is the only cloth that depicts a crucified man that is describe in the 4 Gospels, is it possible that it is the burial cloth of Jesus?
I believe it is and yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
3. How come it is the only one of its kind and we find no other relic like it?
Good question
  #3  
Old Apr 20, '10, 1:24 am
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CatholicOf94 CatholicOf94 is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
I some questions for shroud. If the shroud of Turin is unique. What makes it unique?

1. Where all those who were Crucified in the 1st Century scourge? If not, then the shroud is not unique. Explain.


2. If the shroud is the only cloth that depicts a crucified man that is describe in the 4 Gospels, is it possible that it is the burial cloth of Jesus?

3. How come it is the only one of its kind and we find no other relic like it?





1. We haven't found or probably find bones or other relics of people who were crucified. I saw this one documentary on the History channel, where they found the bones of the foot of a man with the spike STILL in it! But either than that, I can answer this first part of your question.

2. Yep. I dont believe, I KNOW IT IS THE BURIAL CROSS OF OUR LORD!

3. Who knows, the fact that we found one with the same marks and physical appearance of Jesus and no one else's seems surprising.

I SUGGEST THESE LINKS FOR YOU:
http://www.newser.com/story/74518/va...authentic.html

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/guscin2.pdf
  #4  
Old Apr 20, '10, 1:30 am
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
I some questions for shroud. If the shroud of Turin is unique. What makes it unique?

1. Where all those who were Crucified in the 1st Century scourge? If not, then the shroud is not unique. Explain.


it?
I don't understand the question. perhaps a more relevant question would be "how many burial clothes from 1st century Jewish burials of crucifixion victims survive today.?"

and what has this topic to do with non-Catholic religions (unless your topic is 1st c. Jewish burial customs)
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  #5  
Old Apr 20, '10, 3:43 am
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abucs abucs is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

There are quite a few things that are unique about the Turin Shroud :

We don't have another burial shroud from antiquity that

1. is preserved to such an extent.
2. shows the anatomically correct forensic death of a man by Roman crucifixion.
3. acts similar to a photographic negative
4. has a corpse image that has been created in the same (as yet unknown) way


What MAY be somewhat unique to Jesus, assuming a future date of 1st Century is that :

1. The shroud is of good quality. The person crucified had to be wealthy or popular and the Roman Governor had to allow (after crucifying him) that he be respectfully buried. This would rule out the vast majority of 1st century crucifixions.

2. The shroud was kept and passed on without explicit mention (that has survived). The shroud must have been seen as very important and yet needed for some reason to be kept secret. The Jewish law on images and the early persecution of Christianity fits this scenario. Other scenarios would have to be found similarly fitting this constraint.

3. Puncture wounds to the head. The crucified man for some reason would have had to have puncture wounds all over his head. This would again (from the information to date) rule out most crucifixion cases.

4. The legs were not broken but there was a large puncture wound to the side of the body in the spot where blood and water would have gathered (in the right ventricle of the heart) and spurted out when punctured (after death). This unusual occurrence must have a historical explanation.

5. The body was only in the shroud a short time. The forensic evidence of the image shows a dead corpse but not a decaying corpse. The body needed to be removed from the shroud within a few days of crucifixion. Going to the trouble of procuring an expensive shroud for use for only a few days would need to be explained in history. I am unaware of any such recorded burial practices.

6. The body was removed from the shroud without tearing the cloth. The blood that was on the corpse would have stuck the cloth to the body. Any forcible removal of the body would have at least slightly torn some of the threads from the cloth. No tearing was evident under microscopic analysis. The body left the shroud in some (as yet) unknown and bizzare fashion.

I think if the shroud (in the future) is dated to 1st century then it would be pretty definite (at least in my eyes) that it is the shroud of Jesus.

If it dates sometime later, then it is a very intelligent and scientific copy of the crucifixion story based around Jesus.

I believe there has recently been another scientific dating technique created that does not involve destroying the material it is testing. This could be used to clear up any mistakes that might have been made with earlier tests.

http://news.discovery.com/archaeolog...in-shroud.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...in-Shroud.html

Other scientific information on the radio-carbon testing done in 1988.

http://www.shroud.com/nature.htm

http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-carbon-14.htm
  #6  
Old Apr 20, '10, 4:58 am
brb3 brb3 is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post

3. How come it is the only one of its kind and we find no other relic like it?
They have found other similar burial cloths from 1st Century AD. They were badly decomposed .... cotten/linen won't last forever in cool, damp caves.

The Shroud was protected by the Church body thruout the centuries, and is in much better condition. Also, it has been repaired in past by nuns, etc.

Finally, all the others remained around dead, decaying bodies. The Shroud did not. It is unique ... and bespeaks of its origin.
  #7  
Old Apr 20, '10, 5:12 am
SyCarl SyCarl is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

I am skeptical about its genuineness. The shroud shows a face yet we know that Jesus' face was covered by a separate cloth.

Quote:
And so Simon Peter also *came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he *saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.
(Joh 20:6-7 NASB)
  #8  
Old Apr 20, '10, 8:05 am
lax16 lax16 is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

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Originally Posted by SyCarl View Post
I am skeptical about its genuineness. The shroud shows a face yet we know that Jesus' face was covered by a separate cloth.
Oh I am so glad you asked!

Go to http://shroud.com and put "Oviedo cloth" in the search engine.

It appears this is the cloth that covered the head of the person that is depicted on the shroud of Turin.
  #9  
Old Apr 23, '10, 2:59 pm
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MerryCatholic MerryCatholic is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SyCarl View Post
I am skeptical about its genuineness. The shroud shows a face yet we know that Jesus' face was covered by a separate cloth.
it is entirely possible that the face cloth might not have been on Christ's face at the time of resurrection. since we were not present, we have to assume if the shroud is genuine, that the face cloth came off before resurrection. that perhaps an angel took it off our Lord's face. i do believe they think the image only showed on the cloth at the time of Jesus's resurrection. that was when the image was on the cloth and remains so today.
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Old Apr 23, '10, 4:08 pm
lax16 lax16 is offline
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryCatholic View Post
it is entirely possible that the face cloth might not have been on Christ's face at the time of resurrection. since we were not present, we have to assume if the shroud is genuine, that the face cloth came off before resurrection. that perhaps an angel took it off our Lord's face. i do believe they think the image only showed on the cloth at the time of Jesus's resurrection. that was when the image was on the cloth and remains so today.
excerpts from http://shroud.com:

The Sudarium of Oviedo:
Its History and Relationship to the Shroud of Turin
Mark Guscin, B.A. M.Phil.

The cloth was not wrapped entirely round the head because the right cheek was almost touching the right shoulder. This suggests that the sudarium was put into place while the body was still on the cross. The second stain was made about an hour later, when the body was taken down. The third stain was made when the body was lifted from the ground about forty five minutes later. The body was lying at the foot of the cross for about forty-five minutes before being buried. The marks (not fingerprints) of the fingers that held the cloth to the nose are also visible.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

It seems that the sudarium was first used before the dead body was taken down from the cross and discarded when it was buried.

This fits in with what we learn from John's gospel, which tells us that the sudarium was rolled up in a place by itself.

there is a lot more info on the website
  #11  
Old Apr 23, '10, 6:13 pm
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Default Re: If the Shroud is genuine what makes it unique?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lax16 View Post
excerpts from http://shroud.com:

The Sudarium of Oviedo:
Its History and Relationship to the Shroud of Turin
Mark Guscin, B.A. M.Phil.

The cloth was not wrapped entirely round the head because the right cheek was almost touching the right shoulder. This suggests that the sudarium was put into place while the body was still on the cross. The second stain was made about an hour later, when the body was taken down. The third stain was made when the body was lifted from the ground about forty five minutes later. The body was lying at the foot of the cross for about forty-five minutes before being buried. The marks (not fingerprints) of the fingers that held the cloth to the nose are also visible.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

It seems that the sudarium was first used before the dead body was taken down from the cross and discarded when it was buried.

This fits in with what we learn from John's gospel, which tells us that the sudarium was rolled up in a place by itself.

there is a lot more info on the website
That is a very good point about the cloth being discarded. Myself, I do not think the cloth was on Christ's face when He was buried. As you noted, it was rolled up. I do believe that the image was put on the burial cloth at the time of the Resurrection. Wish we knew for sure. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing for sure. Perhaps when Christ returns in glory. He will tell us. Perhaps not.
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