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  #1  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:05 am
ajcstr ajcstr is offline
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Default Lutheran vs Anglican

Can someone compare the beliefs of these two denominations with respect to:

1) purpose of baptism
2) the Eucharist
3) prayers for the dead
4) salvation by faith alone
5) confession of sins
6) any special reverence for Mary

Also could these beliefs vary widely between congregations?
  #2  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:19 am
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcstr View Post
Can someone compare the beliefs of these two denominations with respect to:

1) purpose of baptism
2) the Eucharist
3) prayers for the dead
4) salvation by faith alone
5) confession of sins
6) any special reverence for Mary

Also could these beliefs vary widely between congregations?
This can be difficult to do, aj. Anglicans cannot be put into a box on their beliefs. The only definitive statement is the 39 Articles and the prayerbook, but not all Anglicans hold to these. Some pick and choose, etc. But I will try to compare the 39 Articles with the Lutheran Confessions.

1) Baptism - 39 Articles: Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed, Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ.

The Augsburg Confession: Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace. They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.

2) The Eucharist - 39 Articles: The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ. Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions. The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith. The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.

The Augsburg Confession: Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

3) Prayers for the dead were retained in Lutheran liturgy. I am thinking here of the Sarum Missal, specifically. Lutherans do not deny praying for the repose of the faithful departed. We do, however, argue against prayers that address the dead in invocation.

The 39 Articles condemn the veneration and invocation of saints in Article 22

4) Justification by Faith Alone - 39 Articles: We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

Augsburg Confession: Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4.

I do not believe the 39 Articles directly addresses private confession and absolution. I believe the prayerbook does. However, the Augsburg Confession states: Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.

The Lutheran Confessions do not address Mary beyond stating that she is the Virgin mother of God. The Articles do the same.
  #3  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:20 am
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Well first of all I'd have to ask a few questions before answering these good ones you have here. Are we talking Anglo-Catholic Anglican parishes, broad church, or Evangelical Anglicans? And when we're talking Lutheran are we talking LCMS, WELS, or ELCA? The variety within these communions is vast in itself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcstr View Post
Can someone compare the beliefs of these two denominations with respect to:

1) purpose of baptism
2) the Eucharist
3) prayers for the dead
4) salvation by faith alone
5) confession of sins
6) any special reverence for Mary

Also could these beliefs vary widely between congregations?
  #4  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:24 am
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
Well first of all I'd have to ask a few questions before answering these good ones you have here. Are we talking Anglo-Catholic Anglican parishes, broad church, or Evangelical Anglicans? And when we're talking Lutheran are we talking LCMS, WELS, or ELCA? The variety within these communions is vast in itself...
There isn't a difference between the LCMS and WELS on those things. As far as the ELCA, pffft..who knows LOL.

I do tend to see, however, more of an emphasis on confession & absolution and prayers for the dead in the LCMS than the WELS. The LCMS tends to be more "Catholic" in its practice than the WELS does.
  #5  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:31 am
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

I know WELS and LCMS are pretty much the same. I just mentioned them. ELCA is the TEC of Lutheranism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
There isn't a difference between the LCMS and WELS on those things. As far as the ELCA, pffft..who knows LOL.

I do tend to see, however, more of an emphasis on confession & absolution and prayers for the dead in the LCMS than the WELS. The LCMS tends to be more "Catholic" in its practice than the WELS does.
  #6  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:31 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcstr View Post
Can someone compare the beliefs of these two denominations with respect to:

1) purpose of baptism
Anglican liturgy affirms baptismal regeneration, although "low-church" Anglicans have interpreted this language as conditional. Lutherans don't always like to use the phrase "baptismal regeneration," because historically they have associated this with what they see to be a Catholic theology of baptism that ignores the Word and faith. However, they believe that forgiveness of sins is offered in baptism, not only to adult believers but to infants as well. The Smalcald Articles refer to baptism as "the Word in the water," and that may be the best and most distinctive statement of the Lutheran position.


Quote:
2) the Eucharist
Anglican positions range from a Calvinist "spiritual presence" (the position that appears to be taught in the 39 Articles) to an essentially Catholic view (with accompanying practices, such as Benediction). Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present in, with, and under the bread and wine, in a local and bodily manner. However, many Lutherans believe that this presence exists only during the Liturgy.

Quote:
3) prayers for the dead
Most Anglican liturgies today, of which I'm aware, include prayer for the dead, although this was not the case for some centuries. Lutherans do not, to my knowledge, have a strong position on the subject.

Quote:
4) salvation by faith alone
The 39 Articles affirm this in a succinct and non-dogmatic way. Anglican soteriology today, even more than some other things, is all over the map. I think it's fair to say that Anglican theology has always affirmed the importance of good works, whether in a classical Protestant fruit-of-faith way or in a more Catholic sense--or even in a sense that orthodox Catholics (at least those of a more Thomist/Augustinian bent) might find too close to Pelagianism. The low-church Calvinist Anglican scholar and bishop FitzSimmons Allison has argued (in his The Rise of Moralism) that seventeenth-century Anglicanism moved away from a Reformed soteriology to a form of Semi-Pelagianism.

Lutherans, of course, invented justification by faith alone! However, it's important to distinguish their doctrine from the more modern Baptist/evangelical versions of it. The classic Lutheran doctrine is not based on a "conversion experience" and does not involve eternal security. It does rest on the reception of God's grace as offered in Word and Sacraments.


Quote:
5) confession of sins
Between the Reformation and the 19th century, Anglicans did not regularly practice private confession to a priest. We did (and do) practice corporate confession in the liturgy like other Reformation churches, and people were encouraged to confess their sins when sick or troubled in conscience. But this confession seems to have been regarded as pastoral rather than sacramental. In the 19th century private confession as a sacramental practice was revived, against great opposition. Today most Anglicans would say "all may, none must, some should." Only the very Anglo-Catholic churches have regular times and places for confession. Most of us confess by special appointment with a priest, and some priests are uncomfortable hearing confessions regularly.

Lutherans practiced and taught private confession for the first century or so, but the practice seems to have waned or lapsed in the Enlightenment era. It appears to have been revived since the 19th century (as in Anglicanism), at least among the more high-church Lutherans. Lutherans believe that it is impossible to confess every sin. The purpose of confession is rather to confess one's sinfulness in general (but giving specific examples) and receive a declaration of Christ's forgiveness.

Quote:
6) any special reverence for Mary
Anglicans have always celebrated saints' days, including some of the traditional Marian feasts. Anglo-Catholics often celebrate the same days Catholics do, and practice the same forms of Marian veneration. Other Anglicans simply see Mary as an example to follow, but I'd say that on the whole Anglicans are not "nervous" about honoring Mary in the way that many other Protestants are.

I'm not too sure about the Lutheran stance, but it seems to be similar to that of non-Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, and there are some Lutherans who do honor Mary in ways similar to Catholics. The main Lutheran objection to Catholic Marian piety is its possible conflict with justification by faith alone. In other words, Lutherans would insist that Mary and other saints were also sinners who needed to be saved by grace, and they would deny that the saints have any merits for themselves or others. Rather, the saints are examples of faith. Lutherans have always regarded Mary as the supreme example of faith. Luther wrote a commentary on the Magnificat, and Lutherans (like Anglicans) have regularly used the Magnificat in worship.

Quote:
Also could these beliefs vary widely between congregations?
Yes, especially in Anglicanism. Lutherans have more detailed confessional statements and are more likely to treat those statements as binding. The Anglican 39 Articles are fairly vague, and many Anglicans ignore them. I was never asked to subscribe to them, and my Anglo-Catholic priest regarded the teaching of the pre-Reformation Church as more authoritative than the Articles.

I'm sure that some of my statements about Lutheranism have been erroneous or incomplete, and I welcome correction from Lutherans. (My fellow Anglicans may differ with what I've written as well, but I'm surer of my ground there!)

Edwin
  #7  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:32 am
blazerdave blazerdave is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcstr View Post
Can someone compare the beliefs of these two denominations with respect to:

1) purpose of baptism
2) the Eucharist
3) prayers for the dead
4) salvation by faith alone
5) confession of sins
6) any special reverence for Mary

Also could these beliefs vary widely between congregations?

Very good questions! I'll take a stab at it.

1) purpose of baptism
For both, it marks the entrance into the Church. As far as I can tell, we share basically the same baptismal theology.

2) the Eucharist
Officially, we both believe in Real Presence. I hear a lot of concern from both sides about people losing that belief, but I have never encountered it personally. Now some Anglicans are more Calvinist on the Eucharist, but that's due to the broadness of views in our history. All the Anglicans I know are Lutheran or Catholic in their Communion theology. Lutherans do a better job explaining their beliefs on this because they don't have a Calvinist faction in their ranks.

3) prayers for the dead
We pray that the departed will enjoy eternal rest as part of our Eucharistic liturgy. Anything beyond this is a matter of personal piety. Purgatory is not a required or forbidden doctrine.

4) salvation by faith alone
For the most part, we use the term "salvation by grace." This too will vary by parish and by Anglican.

5) confession of sins
We believe that the corporate confession and absolution in the Eucharistic liturgy is sufficient for absolution to occur. However, our priests will hear individual confessions and pronounce absolution (and penance, if needed).

6) any special reverence for Mary
We probably emphasize her more than Lutherans; I'll be interested in seeing what they say about this one! Some Anglo-Catholics have extraordinary devotion to her. Several of our hymns affirm a very high view of Mary. She might not be mentioned in every single Anglican liturgy, but we still speak of her as Our Lady and as the Blessed Virgin. We also observe her Feast Days.

Could these beliefs vary widely between congregations? Absolutely!
  #8  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:33 am
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini View Post

I'm sure that some of my statements about Lutheranism have been erroneous or incomplete, and I welcome correction from Lutherans. (My fellow Anglicans may differ with what I've written as well, but I'm surer of my ground there!)

Edwin
You did pretty good, Edwin!
  #9  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:52 am
blazerdave blazerdave is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

I'd like to point out that this thread has lots of charity, humility, and sticking-to-the-facts. So it IS possible! Great job, guys.
  #10  
Old Apr 21, '10, 11:54 am
TriuneUnity TriuneUnity is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazerdave View Post
I'd like to point out that this thread has lots of charity, humility, and sticking-to-the-facts. So it IS possible! Great job, guys.
It's possible only insofar as the Catholic participation is dominated by someone who hates the Dodgers
  #11  
Old Apr 21, '10, 12:06 pm
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

To whom are you referring?
At this point I could care less...the Giants are now playing like the team I normally pull for...lost 3 in a row and counting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity View Post
It's possible only insofar as the Catholic participation is dominated by someone who hates the Dodgers
  #12  
Old Apr 21, '10, 12:07 pm
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Give it time, Dave. The day is young LOL...any time now someone will come in and say, "who cares, both Lutherans and Anglicans are doomed anyway?!" LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazerdave View Post
I'd like to point out that this thread has lots of charity, humility, and sticking-to-the-facts. So it IS possible! Great job, guys.
  #13  
Old Apr 21, '10, 12:51 pm
GKC GKC is online now
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini View Post
Anglican liturgy affirms baptismal regeneration, although "low-church" Anglicans have interpreted this language as conditional. Lutherans don't always like to use the phrase "baptismal regeneration," because historically they have associated this with what they see to be a Catholic theology of baptism that ignores the Word and faith. However, they believe that forgiveness of sins is offered in baptism, not only to adult believers but to infants as well. The Smalcald Articles refer to baptism as "the Word in the water," and that may be the best and most distinctive statement of the Lutheran position.


Anglican positions range from a Calvinist "spiritual presence" (the position that appears to be taught in the 39 Articles) to an essentially Catholic view (with accompanying practices, such as Benediction). Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present in, with, and under the bread and wine, in a local and bodily manner. However, many Lutherans believe that this presence exists only during the Liturgy.

Most Anglican liturgies today, of which I'm aware, include prayer for the dead, although this was not the case for some centuries. Lutherans do not, to my knowledge, have a strong position on the subject.

The 39 Articles affirm this in a succinct and non-dogmatic way. Anglican soteriology today, even more than some other things, is all over the map. I think it's fair to say that Anglican theology has always affirmed the importance of good works, whether in a classical Protestant fruit-of-faith way or in a more Catholic sense--or even in a sense that orthodox Catholics (at least those of a more Thomist/Augustinian bent) might find too close to Pelagianism. The low-church Calvinist Anglican scholar and bishop FitzSimmons Allison has argued (in his The Rise of Moralism) that seventeenth-century Anglicanism moved away from a Reformed soteriology to a form of Semi-Pelagianism.

Lutherans, of course, invented justification by faith alone! However, it's important to distinguish their doctrine from the more modern Baptist/evangelical versions of it. The classic Lutheran doctrine is not based on a "conversion experience" and does not involve eternal security. It does rest on the reception of God's grace as offered in Word and Sacraments.


Between the Reformation and the 19th century, Anglicans did not regularly practice private confession to a priest. We did (and do) practice corporate confession in the liturgy like other Reformation churches, and people were encouraged to confess their sins when sick or troubled in conscience. But this confession seems to have been regarded as pastoral rather than sacramental. In the 19th century private confession as a sacramental practice was revived, against great opposition. Today most Anglicans would say "all may, none must, some should." Only the very Anglo-Catholic churches have regular times and places for confession. Most of us confess by special appointment with a priest, and some priests are uncomfortable hearing confessions regularly.

Lutherans practiced and taught private confession for the first century or so, but the practice seems to have waned or lapsed in the Enlightenment era. It appears to have been revived since the 19th century (as in Anglicanism), at least among the more high-church Lutherans. Lutherans believe that it is impossible to confess every sin. The purpose of confession is rather to confess one's sinfulness in general (but giving specific examples) and receive a declaration of Christ's forgiveness.

Anglicans have always celebrated saints' days, including some of the traditional Marian feasts. Anglo-Catholics often celebrate the same days Catholics do, and practice the same forms of Marian veneration. Other Anglicans simply see Mary as an example to follow, but I'd say that on the whole Anglicans are not "nervous" about honoring Mary in the way that many other Protestants are.

I'm not too sure about the Lutheran stance, but it seems to be similar to that of non-Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, and there are some Lutherans who do honor Mary in ways similar to Catholics. The main Lutheran objection to Catholic Marian piety is its possible conflict with justification by faith alone. In other words, Lutherans would insist that Mary and other saints were also sinners who needed to be saved by grace, and they would deny that the saints have any merits for themselves or others. Rather, the saints are examples of faith. Lutherans have always regarded Mary as the supreme example of faith. Luther wrote a commentary on the Magnificat, and Lutherans (like Anglicans) have regularly used the Magnificat in worship.

Yes, especially in Anglicanism. Lutherans have more detailed confessional statements and are more likely to treat those statements as binding. The Anglican 39 Articles are fairly vague, and many Anglicans ignore them. I was never asked to subscribe to them, and my Anglo-Catholic priest regarded the teaching of the pre-Reformation Church as more authoritative than the Articles.

I'm sure that some of my statements about Lutheranism have been erroneous or incomplete, and I welcome correction from Lutherans. (My fellow Anglicans may differ with what I've written as well, but I'm surer of my ground there!)

Edwin

Your points seem ok to me. Though I'd probably add a few furbelows and typical idiosyncratic grumps..


GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus
  #14  
Old Apr 21, '10, 12:52 pm
GKC GKC is online now
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
Give it time, Dave. The day is young LOL...any time now someone will come in and say, "who cares, both Lutherans and Anglicans are doomed anyway?!" LOL

Who cares? Both.... Oh. Wait. That's not my line.

GKC
  #15  
Old Apr 21, '10, 1:09 pm
DV56 DV56 is offline
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Default Re: Lutheran vs Anglican

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
To whom are you referring?
At this point I could care less...the Giants are now playing like the team I normally pull for...lost 3 in a row and counting...
And the Red Sox lost 5 in a row and apologized for last night's win!
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