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  #1  
Old Apr 22, '10, 2:07 pm
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Gift from God Gift from God is offline
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Default Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

Were Adam and Eve real people or just symbolic of man and woman? Was Noah also real? Does the church have a stance of the validity of their existence?
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  #2  
Old Apr 22, '10, 2:42 pm
lynx lynx is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

A lot of big questions in this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift from God View Post
Were Adam and Eve real people or just symbolic of man and woman?
Looking at our DNA and especially mitochondrial DNA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitocho...etic_influence one can begin to trace back lineage potentially to Eve, unlikely Adam, if she is real. I have my doubts though for several reasons:

1) Mitochondrial DNA can vary greatly across the spectrum of people. Making a single common ancestor unlikely.

2) We all look very different after having adapted to our native lands. The genetic diversity we see today has taken an estimated 200k years, from what i've read and reviewed.

3) With so much inbreeding our species would have undergone serious dominant and recessive genetic diseases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift from God View Post
Was Noah also real?
Maybe. But my concerns are still issues 1 and 3.

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Originally Posted by Gift from God View Post
Does the church have a stance of the validity of their existence?
This I just don't know. I hope this helps
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  #3  
Old Apr 22, '10, 3:19 pm
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manygift1spirit manygift1spirit is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

I think this shows it might be hard to describe Adam and Eve empirically, as in scientifically.

Fair enough. But they were real people, in the sense of up until some point in time there were not beings with free will who could come to know God, but then after some point in time there were such people. The first of these people were Adam and Eve, and the Fall comes from them.

The imagery of the details surrounding their story may or may not be literal (e.g., what fruit was it?). But the Church holds they were real people, and mighty influential ones to boot...
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  #4  
Old Apr 22, '10, 3:23 pm
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

The Church teaches that humanity descended from a real first couple. They may or may not have been known as Adam and Eve but they were real. I don't know if there is a defininitive statement on Noah.
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  #5  
Old Apr 22, '10, 4:37 pm
teachccd teachccd is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

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Originally Posted by Gift from God View Post
Were Adam and Eve real people or just symbolic of man and woman? Was Noah also real? Does the church have a stance of the validity of their existence?
ENCYCLICALHUMANI GENERIS
OF THE HOLY FATHER
PIUS XII


37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]

Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, 12 August 1950, the twelfth year of Our Pontificate.
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  #6  
Old Apr 22, '10, 5:02 pm
teachccd teachccd is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynx View Post
A lot of big questions in this post.



Looking at our DNA and especially mitochondrial DNA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitocho...etic_influence one can begin to trace back lineage potentially to Eve, unlikely Adam, if she is real. I have my doubts though for several reasons:

1) Mitochondrial DNA can vary greatly across the spectrum of people. Making a single common ancestor unlikely.

Unlikely is your key word and is inconclusive.

2) We all look very different after having adapted to our native lands. The genetic diversity we see today has taken an estimated 200k years, from what i've read and reviewed.

This adaptation does not deny that in all of the time you mention this could not occur. There are many things that can be read and reviewed but not all publications are accurate or from valid resources.

3) With so much inbreeding our species would have undergone serious dominant and recessive genetic diseases.

Not if our first parents were created without any defects. There are still quantative amounts of genetic diseases that can be passed on regardless of how we choose our mates today.


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  #7  
Old Apr 22, '10, 5:34 pm
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
Unlikely is your key word and is inconclusive.
It is inconclusive. A lot of these things have never been tested. How many biologists sift through mitochondrial DNA patterns looking for a common ancestor? Not any i've seen. But, it still raises doubt due the broad range of patterns we see across multiple people.

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Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
This adaptation does not deny that in all of the time you mention this could not occur.
Can you be more specific please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
There are many things that can be read and reviewed but not all publications are accurate or from valid resources.
True. Plus it's tough to quote journals I don't have in front of me or own

Quote:
Originally Posted by teachccd View Post
Not if our first parents were created without any defects. There are still quantative amounts of genetic diseases that can be passed on regardless of how we choose our mates today.
Perhaps. An interesting question would be how long have we had recessive genes that cause disease? Then how long would it take, from the time of Adam and Eve, then Noah, to re-populate the Earth?
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  #8  
Old Apr 22, '10, 8:32 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Eve is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.


The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism's search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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  #9  
Old Apr 23, '10, 7:40 am
rossum rossum is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift from God View Post
Were Adam and Eve real people or just symbolic of man and woman?
They may have been. It is easy to identify a single couple from whom all living humans are descended. We know that all living humans are descended from Mitochondrial Eve, hence all humans are are descended from her parents. However, those two parents were not the only two biological humans alive on the planet at the time. They could well have been the only two biological humans with souls alive at the time. Science cannot detect whether or not a fossil hominid had a soul or not when it was alive.

Quote:
Was Noah also real?
There probably was a man in a boat who survived a flood with his family and some animals. The flood was not worldwide and the world population of humans has never been as low as eight. We know enough about the variations in the human genome, and the places where it matches with the Chimpanzee genome, to say that our population has never dropped that low since we split from our last common ancestor with the Chimps.

Quote:
Does the church have a stance of the validity of their existence?
Pass.

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  #10  
Old Apr 23, '10, 7:56 am
ThomasToo ThomasToo is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynx View Post
1) Mitochondrial DNA can vary greatly across the spectrum of people. Making a single common ancestor unlikely.

2) We all look very different after having adapted to our native lands. The genetic diversity we see today has taken an estimated 200k years, from what i've read and reviewed.

3) With so much inbreeding our species would have undergone serious dominant and recessive genetic diseases.
I don't think that squares quite right. We of course share a common ancestor at some point (assuming only one instance of abiogenesis). The most recent common ancestor of all living humans can, for all intents and purposes be called the first human. There are earlier instances of the same such as the most recent common ancestor of all humans and all chimpanzees or of all mammals or of all animals or of all living things.

Richard Dawkins's The Ancestor's Tale is a very good book on the subject and you may like it.
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  #11  
Old Apr 24, '10, 6:55 pm
Desertsailor Desertsailor is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

God created Adam and then made Eve from one of his ribs. They are the parents of all human beings. Their feast day is December 26. Any other explanation of the origin of the human race is heresy.
Noah was also a real person and the bible account is accurate. Every civilization has believed in the flood. It is only recently that people have begun to doubt.
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  #12  
Old Apr 25, '10, 7:23 am
Ron Conte Ron Conte is offline
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Default Re: Adam, Eve and Noah; real people or metaphors/allegories?

My view is that Adam and Eve, as well as Noah and his family, are real historical persons. And the events described in Scripture pertaining to them are real historical events. But the description of the events is somewhat figurative.
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