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  #1  
Old May 14, '10, 1:25 am
elts1956 elts1956 is offline
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Default Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Well, we certainly didn't get any response from the pulpit by the clergy regarding abortion in the last fifty years. Let's see if we get a response here. If we do, I think I may just walk out and let folks think what they want. They do anyway. At least in our Parish.

Speaking at a conference, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called on Catholic clergy to play “a very major role” in supporting immigration reform. However, she also praised the group of religious sisters whose endorsement of the health care reform bill undercut the U.S. bishops’ push for abortion funding restrictions.

Her remarks came Thursday on Capitol Hill at the Nation’s Catholic Community Conference sponsored by Trinity Washington University and the National Catholic Reporter.

"The cardinals, the archbishops, the bishops that come to me and say, 'We want you to pass immigration reform,' and I said, 'I want you to speak about it from the pulpit. I want you to instruct…',” Pelosi said, according to Fox News.

The House Speaker, who says she is Catholic..............:rot fl:

To read the full content go to http://www.ewtnnews.com/new.php?id=609
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  #2  
Old May 14, '10, 5:35 am
WatchingMedia WatchingMedia is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

ALL Catholics (including all Religious) must adhere to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition" revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II, first printed in the US in March 2000.

Your Diocese web site should have a link to this Catechism as well as your Parish web site. If not, ask why. Make them do their job !

On the web site, It should not be under RICA, since it applies to all us cradle Catholics as well.
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  #3  
Old May 16, '10, 1:08 am
elts1956 elts1956 is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatchingMedia View Post
ALL Catholics (including all Religious) must adhere to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition" revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II, first printed in the US in March 2000.

Your Diocese web site should have a link to this Catechism as well as your Parish web site. If not, ask why. Make them do their job !

On the web site, It should not be under RICA, since it applies to all us cradle Catholics as well.
Would you clarify please. I have a Catholic Catechism and read it when I am confused about a dogma, or document.
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  #4  
Old May 17, '10, 8:20 am
WatchingMedia WatchingMedia is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

I'm not sure I understand your question.
As you can tell, there are many writers on this blog site who profess to be Catholics yet ask questions that are already answered in the authority of the Catechism.

Many Catholics do not even know this new (first printing in US in March of 2000), Catechism exists.

It is estimated that in the US only 17 to 18% of all baptized Catholics attend Mass every Sunday. This means that over 80% do not understand, know, or believe in the first Commandment.
The Catechism is the best teaching tool we have. It clearly states missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.
Father Corapi recommends using the Catechism for an examination of conscience for a good confession.

Individual Priests and individual Bishops must follow the Catechism as well regarding Faith and Morals. If any individual says something you think needs clarification or does not appear to be correct, check the "Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition" to form a right conscience.

I don't know if I answered your question. Clearly when a Cardinal such as Mahoney compares the Arizona law to Nazism, it is merely his own personal opinion, and not that of the Church.
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  #5  
Old May 17, '10, 9:13 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Politics is by its very nature a shallow and frequently manipulated thing. It can be very tempting to fall for the approach of "Pelosi is for abortion, therefore she is Satan-spawn and I must oppose everything she is for."

This is not catholic thinking. As catholics, we form our consciences based on principles (most clearly outlined in the catechism, as noted above). Then based on that formation, we address specific issues. What Pelosi or Limbaugh thinks of the particular issue is irrelevant.

Abortion is really a fairly simple issue to figure out when separated from the emotion and rhetoric. A sperm and egg join to create a completely new organism. It is scientifically demonstrable that the new organism is not part of the mother's body (different DNA) though it is dependant on it. It is scientifically provable that the new organism has human DNA and since it IS a life form, the only reasonable conclusion is that it is a human being. (If you deny that, the burden is on YOU to say what it is. It's not a bacteria, not a protozoa, certainly not a monkey, etc) At that point, the principle is easy to reason: You can't kill a human being for convenience, or even to avoid substantial inconvenience or risk.

Immigration is the same thing after you remove the rhetoric and heat. Are there legitimate reasons to regulate the migration of peoples across national borders? Yes! Is the condition of the USA such that our culture, resources, infrastructure and economy is unable to support large numbers of new immigrants? No. Quite the opposite! We have so few children of our own that our economic growth is actually dependant on immigration, our undeveloped resources are VAST, our culture has long been one of a melting pot of peoples, our infrastructure is among the best on Earth and there are throngs of people that would like to come here.

Now, what are the legal opportunities for poor and unskilled people to immigrate? Virtually nil. Nada. Zip. Unless you have connections (family or employer), you ain't coming to the USA from Mexico legally. Won't happen. And that is utterly STUPID. These are great people willing to work hard and sacrifice for their children's future. They are exactly the kind of immigrant that has always yearned to come to America. Why have we stonewalled them? There really is no good reason. Every lame attempt at a justification for our current policy is just a repeat of the same lame Xenophobic, self-interested protectionism cited by the people that tried to prevent OUR great grandparents from coming here. (We've got enough of those dirty, stinkin' Pollack, Irish, Italian, etc...)

Nancy has a lot wrong with her and I'm not sure where precisely she stands on immigration. But it's a done deal that we have a horribly broken and unjust immigration system in the USA. The tired, poor, broken, yearning to be free need not apply today. Instead, we pretend there is a solid wall blocking them off. Democrats secretly love it because the injustice guarantees that the kids of illegals will be a solid block of D voters for life. Republicans secretly love it because it guarantees them the votes of rednecks and business owners who exploit the disposable labor it provides. Every political group gains something from the status quo. Except those who would like to legally come to America and contribute to the dream. They get the shaft.

Again, I don't yet know where she stands, but I DO hate the proposals I've heard from all sides in recent years. Guest worker programs are a horrible idea that just creates a perpetual underclass. Amnesty rewards those who came here illegally and effectively punishes those who didn't come out of obedience to the law. Walls won't work unless a fair system is established first and aren't really meant to (IMO they are just red meat tossed to a certain political base).

A catholic solution would look like this (IMO):
1. Vastly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed with no strings attached.
2. Offer a plea bargain program for those here illegally to turn themselves in, get parole with community service, a nominal fine and 5 years of probation in which any felony or criminal misdemeanor gets them deported with no third chance (this IS the second). Upon 10 year of clean record, eligible for citizenship and pardon. Note that this isn't amnesty, though Hannity would likely try to call it that. This has teeth and rewards those who obeyed the law even when it was arguably unfair over those who disregarded it.
3. Enforce the borders and deport further violators once a fair legal means has been established.

The order of the above is crucially important. 3 cannot be done fairly until 1 and 2 are completed.

Last edited by manualman; May 17, '10 at 9:30 am.
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  #6  
Old May 17, '10, 9:27 am
WatchingMedia WatchingMedia is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Anyone Catholic who would stand before the Press to gain support for her pro-abortion position and talk about St. Joseph in regard to the same is no Saint.
Polosi can not be trusted to tell the truth, and is a heretic when she states the Church is unclear about abortion.

If the Feds control the border, Mexicans will get work visas because employers will need and demand it. Supply and demand.
However, with the Amercian unemployment currently at 9.9%, you may be correct that employers would have to hire Americans first and pay at least the minimum wage.

Employers are to blame for much of this. The Feds don't enforce the law with them either.
Nancy as House Speaker (majority party) could publically push Obama to do his job regarding all immigration laws, not only protecting the borders.
Oh, but that would effect some of her husband's interests as well. (We need term limits due to corruption throughout Washington.)
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  #7  
Old May 17, '10, 7:50 pm
elts1956 elts1956 is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatchingMedia View Post
I'm not sure I understand your question.
As you can tell, there are many writers on this blog site who profess to be Catholics yet ask questions that are already answered in the authority of the Catechism.

Many Catholics do not even know this new (first printing in US in March of 2000), Catechism exists.

It is estimated that in the US only 17 to 18% of all baptized Catholics attend Mass every Sunday. This means that over 80% do not understand, know, or believe in the first Commandment.
The Catechism is the best teaching tool we have. It clearly states missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.
Father Corapi recommends using the Catechism for an examination of conscience for a good confession.

Individual Priests and individual Bishops must follow the Catechism as well regarding Faith and Morals. If any individual says something you think needs clarification or does not appear to be correct, check the "Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition" to form a right conscience.

I don't know if I answered your question. Clearly when a Cardinal such as Mahoney compares the Arizona law to Nazism, it is merely his own personal opinion, and not that of the Church.
"Clearly when a Cardinal such as Mahoney compares the Arizona law to Nazism, it is merely his own personal opinion, and not that of the Church."

You've got that right. I wonder what will happen to all of his puppets now that he has been asked to step down?? Unfortunately, the mouthy majority will claim this is what the "Church" said. Apparently they don't understand the complexity of the the Catholic Church, nor do they know if its core teachings.
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  #8  
Old May 17, '10, 7:52 pm
elts1956 elts1956 is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatchingMedia View Post
I'm not sure I understand your question.
As you can tell, there are many writers on this blog site who profess to be Catholics yet ask questions that are already answered in the authority of the Catechism.

Many Catholics do not even know this new (first printing in US in March of 2000), Catechism exists.

It is estimated that in the US only 17 to 18% of all baptized Catholics attend Mass every Sunday. This means that over 80% do not understand, know, or believe in the first Commandment.
The Catechism is the best teaching tool we have. It clearly states missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.
Father Corapi recommends using the Catechism for an examination of conscience for a good confession.

Individual Priests and individual Bishops must follow the Catechism as well regarding Faith and Morals. If any individual says something you think needs clarification or does not appear to be correct, check the "Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition" to form a right conscience.

I don't know if I answered your question. Clearly when a Cardinal such as Mahoney compares the Arizona law to Nazism, it is merely his own personal opinion, and not that of the Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WatchingMedia View Post
Anyone Catholic who would stand before the Press to gain support for her pro-abortion position and talk about St. Joseph in regard to the same is no Saint.
Polosi can not be trusted to tell the truth, and is a heretic when she states the Church is unclear about abortion.

If the Feds control the border, Mexicans will get work visas because employers will need and demand it. Supply and demand.
However, with the Amercian unemployment currently at 9.9%, you may be correct that employers would have to hire Americans first and pay at least the minimum wage.

Employers are to blame for much of this. The Feds don't enforce the law with them either.
Nancy as House Speaker (majority party) could publically push Obama to do his job regarding all immigration laws, not only protecting the borders.
Oh, but that would effect some of her husband's interests as well. (We need term limits due to corruption throughout Washington.)
And did you notice the ashes on Biden's head for all the world to see on Ash Wednesday? What a hypocrite and his Bishop does nothing about it.
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  #9  
Old May 17, '10, 7:58 pm
elts1956 elts1956 is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Politics is by its very nature a shallow and frequently manipulated thing. It can be very tempting to fall for the approach of "Pelosi is for abortion, therefore she is Satan-spawn and I must oppose everything she is for."

This is not catholic thinking. As catholics, we form our consciences based on principles (most clearly outlined in the catechism, as noted above). Then based on that formation, we address specific issues. What Pelosi or Limbaugh thinks of the particular issue is irrelevant.

Abortion is really a fairly simple issue to figure out when separated from the emotion and rhetoric. A sperm and egg join to create a completely new organism. It is scientifically demonstrable that the new organism is not part of the mother's body (different DNA) though it is dependant on it. It is scientifically provable that the new organism has human DNA and since it IS a life form, the only reasonable conclusion is that it is a human being. (If you deny that, the burden is on YOU to say what it is. It's not a bacteria, not a protozoa, certainly not a monkey, etc) At that point, the principle is easy to reason: You can't kill a human being for convenience, or even to avoid substantial inconvenience or risk.

Immigration is the same thing after you remove the rhetoric and heat. Are there legitimate reasons to regulate the migration of peoples across national borders? Yes! Is the condition of the USA such that our culture, resources, infrastructure and economy is unable to support large numbers of new immigrants? No. Quite the opposite! We have so few children of our own that our economic growth is actually dependant on immigration, our undeveloped resources are VAST, our culture has long been one of a melting pot of peoples, our infrastructure is among the best on Earth and there are throngs of people that would like to come here.

Now, what are the legal opportunities for poor and unskilled people to immigrate? Virtually nil. Nada. Zip. Unless you have connections (family or employer), you ain't coming to the USA from Mexico legally. Won't happen. And that is utterly STUPID. These are great people willing to work hard and sacrifice for their children's future. They are exactly the kind of immigrant that has always yearned to come to America. Why have we stonewalled them? There really is no good reason. Every lame attempt at a justification for our current policy is just a repeat of the same lame Xenophobic, self-interested protectionism cited by the people that tried to prevent OUR great grandparents from coming here. (We've got enough of those dirty, stinkin' Pollack, Irish, Italian, etc...)

Nancy has a lot wrong with her and I'm not sure where precisely she stands on immigration. But it's a done deal that we have a horribly broken and unjust immigration system in the USA. The tired, poor, broken, yearning to be free need not apply today. Instead, we pretend there is a solid wall blocking them off. Democrats secretly love it because the injustice guarantees that the kids of illegals will be a solid block of D voters for life. Republicans secretly love it because it guarantees them the votes of rednecks and business owners who exploit the disposable labor it provides. Every political group gains something from the status quo. Except those who would like to legally come to America and contribute to the dream. They get the shaft.

Again, I don't yet know where she stands, but I DO hate the proposals I've heard from all sides in recent years. Guest worker programs are a horrible idea that just creates a perpetual underclass. Amnesty rewards those who came here illegally and effectively punishes those who didn't come out of obedience to the law. Walls won't work unless a fair system is established first and aren't really meant to (IMO they are just red meat tossed to a certain political base).

A catholic solution would look like this (IMO):
1. Vastly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed with no strings attached.
2. Offer a plea bargain program for those here illegally to turn themselves in, get parole with community service, a nominal fine and 5 years of probation in which any felony or criminal misdemeanor gets them deported with no third chance (this IS the second). Upon 10 year of clean record, eligible for citizenship and pardon. Note that this isn't amnesty, though Hannity would likely try to call it that. This has teeth and rewards those who obeyed the law even when it was arguably unfair over those who disregarded it.
3. Enforce the borders and deport further violators once a fair legal means has been established.

The order of the above is crucially important. 3 cannot be done fairly until 1 and 2 are completed.
"Pelosi is for abortion, therefore she is Satan-spawn and I must oppose everything she is for."
When one supports "anything" the Dems. create, citizenry seems to think one supports "everything" they create. I have a difficult time supporting the Dems. in what are good policies when over a million babies are killed each year with the evangelization of women's right to their bodies are mouthed by such as Pelosi who should know better. She, Biden, Kerry, the Kennedys (the majority of them) and others are playing at being Catholic. I can't support them when so much good could be done if the pro death Dems would only wake up. By the way, this isn't just about Dems. and Pubs. It is about the right to life.
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  #10  
Old May 18, '10, 3:56 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

But elts, that's human political thinking, not christian principled reasoning. I see no reason the Church couldn't offer support for reasonable immigration reform when the opportunity arises. She just ought to put in a few life jabs with each press release to avoid any confusion that support for the issue is support for the party.
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  #11  
Old May 18, '10, 7:20 pm
elts1956 elts1956 is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Politics is by its very nature a shallow and frequently manipulated thing. It can be very tempting to fall for the approach of "Pelosi is for abortion, therefore she is Satan-spawn and I must oppose everything she is for."

This is not catholic thinking. As catholics, we form our consciences based on principles (most clearly outlined in the catechism, as noted above). Then based on that formation, we address specific issues. What Pelosi or Limbaugh thinks of the particular issue is irrelevant.

Abortion is really a fairly simple issue to figure out when separated from the emotion and rhetoric. A sperm and egg join to create a completely new organism. It is scientifically demonstrable that the new organism is not part of the mother's body (different DNA) though it is dependant on it. It is scientifically provable that the new organism has human DNA and since it IS a life form, the only reasonable conclusion is that it is a human being. (If you deny that, the burden is on YOU to say what it is. It's not a bacteria, not a protozoa, certainly not a monkey, etc) At that point, the principle is easy to reason: You can't kill a human being for convenience, or even to avoid substantial inconvenience or risk.

Immigration is the same thing after you remove the rhetoric and heat. Are there legitimate reasons to regulate the migration of peoples across national borders? Yes! Is the condition of the USA such that our culture, resources, infrastructure and economy is unable to support large numbers of new immigrants? No. Quite the opposite! We have so few children of our own that our economic growth is actually dependant on immigration, our undeveloped resources are VAST, our culture has long been one of a melting pot of peoples, our infrastructure is among the best on Earth and there are throngs of people that would like to come here.

Now, what are the legal opportunities for poor and unskilled people to immigrate? Virtually nil. Nada. Zip. Unless you have connections (family or employer), you ain't coming to the USA from Mexico legally. Won't happen. And that is utterly STUPID. These are great people willing to work hard and sacrifice for their children's future. They are exactly the kind of immigrant that has always yearned to come to America. Why have we stonewalled them? There really is no good reason. Every lame attempt at a justification for our current policy is just a repeat of the same lame Xenophobic, self-interested protectionism cited by the people that tried to prevent OUR great grandparents from coming here. (We've got enough of those dirty, stinkin' Pollack, Irish, Italian, etc...)

Nancy has a lot wrong with her and I'm not sure where precisely she stands on immigration. But it's a done deal that we have a horribly broken and unjust immigration system in the USA. The tired, poor, broken, yearning to be free need not apply today. Instead, we pretend there is a solid wall blocking them off. Democrats secretly love it because the injustice guarantees that the kids of illegals will be a solid block of D voters for life. Republicans secretly love it because it guarantees them the votes of rednecks and business owners who exploit the disposable labor it provides. Every political group gains something from the status quo. Except those who would like to legally come to America and contribute to the dream. They get the shaft.

Again, I don't yet know where she stands, but I DO hate the proposals I've heard from all sides in recent years. Guest worker programs are a horrible idea that just creates a perpetual underclass. Amnesty rewards those who came here illegally and effectively punishes those who didn't come out of obedience to the law. Walls won't work unless a fair system is established first and aren't really meant to (IMO they are just red meat tossed to a certain political base).

A catholic solution would look like this (IMO):
1. Vastly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed with no strings attached.
2. Offer a plea bargain program for those here illegally to turn themselves in, get parole with community service, a nominal fine and 5 years of probation in which any felony or criminal misdemeanor gets them deported with no third chance (this IS the second). Upon 10 year of clean record, eligible for citizenship and pardon. Note that this isn't amnesty, though Hannity would likely try to call it that. This has teeth and rewards those who obeyed the law even when it was arguably unfair over those who disregarded it.
3. Enforce the borders and deport further violators once a fair legal means has been established.

The order of the above is crucially important. 3 cannot be done fairly until 1 and 2 are completed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
But elts, that's human political thinking, not christian principled reasoning. I see no reason the Church couldn't offer support for reasonable immigration reform when the opportunity arises. She just ought to put in a few life jabs with each press release to avoid any confusion that support for the issue is support for the party.
You know Manualman, I have no idea what is in the Dems. Immigration package. I have no idea what would be considered a reasonable Immigration package by the Bishops. Do you? Not to put you on the spot, but I just have no idea. The idea of illegals registering to work with the promise of fulfilling certain obligations and then going to the back of the line has some resonence with me.-
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  #12  
Old May 19, '10, 7:39 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

I tend to talk like an expert, but am really far from one. From the best of my very limited investigations into the matter I believe my idea is generally in conformance with the USCCB reccommendations on immigration reform, but am happy to be corrected by anyone with a more detailed picture. I get much of my information on the subject from links here and listening to the catholic radio station in my 1.5 hour a day commute.
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  #13  
Old May 19, '10, 7:52 am
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
A catholic solution would look like this (IMO):
1. Vastly increase the number of legal immigrants allowed with no strings attached.
2. Offer a plea bargain program for those here illegally to turn themselves in, get parole with community service, a nominal fine and 5 years of probation in which any felony or criminal misdemeanor gets them deported with no third chance (this IS the second). Upon 10 year of clean record, eligible for citizenship and pardon. Note that this isn't amnesty, though Hannity would likely try to call it that. This has teeth and rewards those who obeyed the law even when it was arguably unfair over those who disregarded it.
3. Enforce the borders and deport further violators once a fair legal means has been established.

The order of the above is crucially important. 3 cannot be done fairly until 1 and 2 are completed.
You are correct that the order is important. Before you even get to #1, however, a Catholic solution would need a step that clears the waiting lists for immigrants waiting to enter legally. The immigration problem isn't all about the illegals. To even consider letting illegals get a fast track to citizenship by jumping to the front of the line past law abiding foreign nationals who have done everything right and waited for years to enter the US would be immoral.
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"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #14  
Old May 19, '10, 8:09 am
DanteAlighieri DanteAlighieri is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Let us not forget that the government has a divinely instituted responsibility and right to protect its citizenry:

Quote:
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
There are people trying to infiltrate our nation and kill our citizens, and our southern border leaks like a sieve. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that the US has a duty to police its borders and restrict access to those we are reasonably sure are here for peaceful purposes -- and, therefore, to investigate them for that purpose.

Furthermore, the CCC indicates that, while governments have a responsibility to respect individual rights -- especially of the poor, and even if they are not citizens -- it is appropriate to consider the common good when granting citizenship:
Quote:
2237 (snip)
The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.
Peace,
Dante
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  #15  
Old May 19, '10, 2:40 pm
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kimmielittle kimmielittle is offline
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Default Re: Will the Clergy go Hand in Hand with Pelosi on Immigration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
To even consider letting illegals get a fast track to citizenship by jumping to the front of the line past law abiding foreign nationals who have done everything right and waited for years to enter the US would be immoral.
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