John 6:63 Meaning

AdamC · #1 May 21, '10, 11:58 pm

"It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life." John 6:63

I've been doing a lot of reading on the Eucharist, and the concept of transubstantiation. I've read both Protestant and Catholic arguments on it, and this seems to be the one sticky verse that seemingly puts a hamper on the Catholic point of view. But, I think I've come upon an understanding of the verse that I haven't read anywhere yet.

We're told that we must discern the true body in the bread and the wine, and we're told that the bread is flesh, and the wine is blood. (I won't get into the whole concept of transubstantiation here, because I think there is enough about that on these forums.) But then, on the other hand, Jesus says the flesh is of no avail, and it is the spirit that gives life.

My ideas is that what Jesus is saying here, in John 6, is that in order to achieve salvation, there must be some outward sign of faith. We take his flesh and blood into our bodies, and we are saved by it. But it's not the flesh and blood that saves us, so much as it is our acceptance of the Lord as our savior, which is indicated by our taking of his whole self as "supper". The flesh we take into our bodies doesn't save us, so much as the act of obedience does.

"Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me." 6:57

We follow Jesus' will, and because of it we are saved. The bread and wine are transformed into the complete Christ, and in taking it as food and drink we are saved for it, but it's not the flesh and blood that save us, but the Lord's grace that does. So like Jesus says, it's the spirit that gives life, but the flesh is of no avail.

Does this make sense? Or am I biting my own tail?

MarkThompson · #2 May 22, '10, 12:33 am

Perhaps these words from St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom, quoted by St. Thomas Aquinas in his Catena Aurea, will shed some light:

CHRYS[OSTOM]. He tries to remove their difficulties in another way, as follows, It is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing: that is to say, You ought to understand My words in a spiritual sense: he who understands them carnally is profited nothing. To interpret carnally is to take a proposition in its bare literal meaning, and allow no other. But we should not judge of mysteries in this way; but examine them with the inward eye; i.e. understand them spiritually. It was carnal to doubt how our Lord could give His flesh to eat. What then? Is it not real flesh? Yes, verily. In saying then that the flesh profits nothing, He does not speak of His own flesh, but that of the carnal hearer of His word

AUG[USTINE]. Or thus, the flesh profits nothing. They had understood by His flesh, as it were, of a carcass, that was to be cut up, and sold in the shambles, not of a body animated by the spirit. Join the spirit to the flesh, and it profits much: for if the flesh profited not, the Word would not have become flesh, and dwelt among us. The Spirit has done much for our salvation, by means of the flesh.

AUG. For the flesh does not cleanse of itself, but by the Word who assumed it: which Word, being the principle of life in all things, having taken up soul and body, cleanses the souls and bodies of those that believe. It is the spirit, it, then, that quickens: the flesh profits nothing; i.e. the flesh as they understood it. I do not, He seems to say, give My body to be eaten in this sense. He ought not to think of the flesh carnally: The words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.

CHRYS. i.e. are spiritual, have nothing carnal in them, produce no effects of the natural sort; not being under the dominion of that law of necessity, and order of nature established on earth.

AUG. If then you understand them spiritually, they are life and spirit to you: if carnally, even then they are life and spirit, but not to you. Our Lord declares that in eating His body, and drinking His blood, we dwell in Him, and He in us. But what has the power to affect this, except love? The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which is given to us.

This seems right, that Jesus was trying to explain his "hard teaching" and dispel the misconceptions of the followers. And, although I think you're right to say that it's the Lord's grace that saves us, I do not think Jesus meant that his Eucharistic flesh is of "no avail"; rather, that our flesh -- all our earthly powers -- are of no avail, unless we are "born of water and Spirit," Jn. 3:5-6, and unless, pursuant to Jesus' words, which are "the words of eternal life," 6:68, we eat of "the flesh of the Son of Man," which is "true food," 6:54-55.

I agree, though, that the passage is a little confusing, primarily because the hypothetical in v.62 seems out of place and Jesus doesn't really go anywhere with it.

AdamC · #3 May 22, '10, 12:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkThompson

Perhaps these words from St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom, quoted by St. Thomas Aquinas in his Catena Aurea, will shed some light:

CHRYS[OSTOM]. He tries to remove their difficulties in another way, as follows, It is the spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing: that is to say, You ought to understand My words in a spiritual sense: he who understands them carnally is profited nothing. To interpret carnally is to take a proposition in its bare literal meaning, and allow no other. But we should not judge of mysteries in this way; but examine them with the inward eye; i.e. understand them spiritually. It was carnal to doubt how our Lord could give His flesh to eat. What then? Is it not real flesh? Yes, verily. In saying then that the flesh profits nothing, He does not speak of His own flesh, but that of the carnal hearer of His word

AUG[USTINE]. Or thus, the flesh profits nothing. They had understood by His flesh, as it were, of a carcass, that was to be cut up, and sold in the shambles, not of a body animated by the spirit. Join the spirit to the flesh, and it profits much: for if the flesh profited not, the Word would not have become flesh, and dwelt among us. The Spirit has done much for our salvation, by means of the flesh.

AUG. For the flesh does not cleanse of itself, but by the Word who assumed it: which Word, being the principle of life in all things, having taken up soul and body, cleanses the souls and bodies of those that believe. It is the spirit, it, then, that quickens: the flesh profits nothing; i.e. the flesh as they understood it. I do not, He seems to say, give My body to be eaten in this sense. He ought not to think of the flesh carnally: The words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.

CHRYS. i.e. are spiritual, have nothing carnal in them, produce no effects of the natural sort; not being under the dominion of that law of necessity, and order of nature established on earth.

AUG. If then you understand them spiritually, they are life and spirit to you: if carnally, even then they are life and spirit, but not to you. Our Lord declares that in eating His body, and drinking His blood, we dwell in Him, and He in us. But what has the power to affect this, except love? The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, which is given to us.

This seems right, that Jesus was trying to explain his "hard teaching" and dispel the misconceptions of the followers. And, although I think you're right to say that it's the Lord's grace that saves us, I do not think Jesus meant that his Eucharistic flesh is of "no avail"; rather, that our flesh -- all our earthly powers -- are of no avail, unless we are "born of water and Spirit," Jn. 3:5-6, and unless, pursuant to Jesus' words, which are "the words of eternal life," 6:68, we eat of "the flesh of the Son of Man," which is "true food," 6:54-55.

I agree, though, that the passage is a little confusing, primarily because the hypothetical in v.62 seems out of place and Jesus doesn't really go anywhere with it.

Nice, thanks. That makes more sense than my idea, anyway.

I'm starting to like these forums, it's really the only online place where everything I say doesn't end up getting flamed.

MarkThompson · #4 May 22, '10, 12:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamC

Nice, thanks. That makes more sense than my idea, anyway.

I'm starting to like these forums, it's really the only online place where everything I say doesn't end up getting flamed.

Haha, well, there's a list of banned topics for a reason!

And I'm no expert whatsoever in Scriptural exegesis, but I should also have pointed out v.58: "This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." It's interesting for three reasons: first, after repeatedly talking about his flesh and blood, he calls himself "bread." Second, he states that he is bread "that came down from heaven," which to my reading at least sets him apart from ordinary "flesh-and-blood" mortals, and emphasizes that eating his flesh (true food) isn't like jungle tribes eating each other (yucky cannibalism).

Third, consider the last part, where he says, "Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." Jesus does not mean that these followers will live in the flesh forever, i.e. that they will become immortal on earth. They will live forever in the spirit (at least until the end of time when our bodies are gloriously raised, though even then they probably won't be "flesh" in the humdrum carnal sense). So again Jesus is playing what is from heaven (himself in the Eucharistic bread he offers them) against what is from earth (our physical bodies, including Jesus', which are but dust).

And Jesus did not, as we are aware, want them to eat his earthly, walking-around-Judea body, which his followers fortunately realized -- that's why they didn't kill him and devour him, and why after he died on the cross they prepared his body for the tomb and buried it behind a massive stone, rather than, you know, roasting it or something.

DavidKays · #5 May 22, '10, 3:07 am

Hi Adam! Your question seems important to you since we have today our Protestant Brethren who do help us or make us understand better this teaching that Our Lord gave. It is not that they have the correct teaching, no, it is because we do that we need it to understand better now we are in the 21st century. Our Protestant Brethren do make us work harder! I am Greek Orthodox and will like to add an Orthodox perspective. Orthodox tend to speak in mystical terms so they are more like St.John Chrysostom. Basically we believe in the same Eucharist as do the Catholics and many here have already posted great answers. When Jesus refers to the flesh profitted nothing He is referring to our own flesh. The Spirit He is referring to is the Holy Spirit. For it is the Holy Spirit that gives Life. The Orthodox tend not to use big words as the Catholics do to explain the mystery of the change. As one of our Church Fathers wrote " the East has to strong of a mystery to explain the change. We leave that up to God. It is enough to know that it is the Holy Spirit who accomplishes this. For the same Holy Spirit which incarnates the Lord Jesus in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same Holy Spirit which incarnates bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Lord that we receive in Holy Communion is not the same Lord Jesus that walked around almost 2000 years ago but the resurrected Lord. We receive the Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity of Our Resurrected Lord when we partake of Holy Communion. So the seeds of the resurrected Life of Our Lord is planted in us. The Body of Our Lord can save. However it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church as is the Catholic Church that you must be in a state of Grace to be able to receive the benefits of this great Sacrament. You cannot receive Him casually as if to give no thought to whom you are receiving. There is ernormous benefit from preperation that can actually grant an ernormous amount of Graces. This is taught in our Churches so that we can tap into those Graces. If you do not prepare yourself properly then you can nullify any Graces that the Lord wants to give you. The preperation to which I am referring to is a sense of unworthiness which leads you into humilty when receiving the Lord. We may be unworthy to receive Him but He makes us worthy! The unworthiness is not a condemnation, no, it is rather a sense that without Him we are nothing and with Him we are everything. To explain this simply I will use the illustration of a toothpick and a solid nail. Take only the toothpick and bend it. It breaks quite easily! Now only take the solid nail and you will find you cannot bend it. Now take the toothpick and bring it alongside the solid nail and with the 2 together bend it. You cannot break the toothpick for now it has the strength of the nail that is alongside it. This is a very simple illustration which describes our own condition. We are the toothpick. The Lord is the nail. We need the strength of the nail that is Our Lord in Holy Communion so that we will not break. This is the humilty I am referring to. That we need the strength of Our Lord in us so that we will never be broken. The Eastern Fathers often said the Holy Communion becomes our Antidote. God is our Antidote. I hope this has help you understand better. God Bless!

jpjd · #6 May 22, '10, 5:12 am

Good post, David! And I love the toothpick and nail analogy.

Poco · #7 May 22, '10, 7:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpjd

Good post, David! And I love the toothpick and nail analogy.

I agree wholeheartedly!

And David, IMHO, in just a few sentences you have explained quite clearly what others have taken entire books to explain!

AdamC · #8 May 22, '10, 11:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidKays

Hi Adam! Your question seems important to you since we have today our Protestant Brethren who do help us or make us understand better this teaching that Our Lord gave. It is not that they have the correct teaching, no, it is because we do that we need it to understand better now we are in the 21st century. Our Protestant Brethren do make us work harder! I am Greek Orthodox and will like to add an Orthodox perspective. Orthodox tend to speak in mystical terms so they are more like St.John Chrysostom. Basically we believe in the same Eucharist as do the Catholics and many here have already posted great answers. When Jesus refers to the flesh profitted nothing He is referring to our own flesh. The Spirit He is referring to is the Holy Spirit. For it is the Holy Spirit that gives Life. The Orthodox tend not to use big words as the Catholics do to explain the mystery of the change. As one of our Church Fathers wrote " the East has to strong of a mystery to explain the change. We leave that up to God. It is enough to know that it is the Holy Spirit who accomplishes this. For the same Holy Spirit which incarnates the Lord Jesus in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same Holy Spirit which incarnates bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Lord that we receive in Holy Communion is not the same Lord Jesus that walked around almost 2000 years ago but the resurrected Lord. We receive the Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity of Our Resurrected Lord when we partake of Holy Communion. So the seeds of the resurrected Life of Our Lord is planted in us. The Body of Our Lord can save. However it is the teaching of the Orthodox Church as is the Catholic Church that you must be in a state of Grace to be able to receive the benefits of this great Sacrament. You cannot receive Him casually as if to give no thought to whom you are receiving. There is ernormous benefit from preperation that can actually grant an ernormous amount of Graces. This is taught in our Churches so that we can tap into those Graces. If you do not prepare yourself properly then you can nullify any Graces that the Lord wants to give you. The preperation to which I am referring to is a sense of unworthiness which leads you into humilty when receiving the Lord. We may be unworthy to receive Him but He makes us worthy! The unworthiness is not a condemnation, no, it is rather a sense that without Him we are nothing and with Him we are everything. To explain this simply I will use the illustration of a toothpick and a solid nail. Take only the toothpick and bend it. It breaks quite easily! Now only take the solid nail and you will find you cannot bend it. Now take the toothpick and bring it alongside the solid nail and with the 2 together bend it. You cannot break the toothpick for now it has the strength of the nail that is alongside it. This is a very simple illustration which describes our own condition. We are the toothpick. The Lord is the nail. We need the strength of the nail that is Our Lord in Holy Communion so that we will not break. This is the humilty I am referring to. That we need the strength of Our Lord in us so that we will never be broken. The Eastern Fathers often said the Holy Communion becomes our Antidote. God is our Antidote. I hope this has help you understand better. God Bless!

Wow. You got A's in college, didn't you?

DavidKays · #9 May 23, '10, 7:31 pm

I wish I had those A's, thanks to all of you for your kind comments! God Bless!

asker42 · #10 Jul 2, '11, 6:52 am

I want to comment on the remark made that Jesus' statement in John 6:62 confuses the matter. It seems to be that what Jesus is saying is that if the Apostles don't recognize that Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh then it won't matter if they see his Ascension with their eyes but fail to recognize its signifigance. The statement therefore suppliments what he is saying being that if the meaning behing the action and its theological importance and neccessity is not understand by the soul then just carrying it out is not going to fulfill the actions purpose.