Why?

[BryanM27]

Originally Posted by russell007

The creation of matter came from the energy of the universe at the begining when the universe exopanded some of the energy converted into matter E=mc2

How did the empty universe come up with energy to start in motion? Hhhm seems like you would have to have an Almighty God!

There we go! That's exactly where I was trying to get to. That moment when there really was nothing. No energy, no matter, nothing but the empty void.

[allenirvan]

I want to make a point here about Atheists and science, and in conclusion I'll tell you why I believe in the Christian God.

Science cannot prove or disprove anything about God or any deity. If any deity created the universe from outside the universe, then how can science which measures this universe and draws conclusions from it measure something outside it? Its simply not logical to even bring science to the debate of God's existence. Now, you can prove all kinds of things about the human part of any deistic religion. Science has historically brought into question many church and religious teachings for example geocentricism, and the belief in a flat earth, but all this says nothing about God, just about the ignorance of the people. Christians and Atheists alike need to leave science at home for the God debate. That said, I understand this is difficult for the Atheist because most Atheists today strive to limit their beliefs to simply those things that can be proven by science. So I ask you OP, why are you asking about something that cannot be proven or disproven? It seems to me that the only type things you can believe as an Atheist is that if you jump, gravity will pull you down to the ground, that the earth orbits the sun, that a piece of letter size paper is reasonably close to 8.5" x 11"; these things we can prove with some confidence, but applicable ONLY within the appropriate measurable system. Atheism stands on one HUGE negative proof fallacy.

So, as a Christian, how am I any different? Will I say to you, if you can't prove its false then it must be true while you say to me if I can't prove its true then it must be false? Perhaps some will. I contend however that faith, not proof, is the key to knowing about God, that it is not a circular argument, that it is fully within the bounds of argument theory and logic, and that through it God has provided the necessary evidence to maintain and grow my belief and faith. My friend, we are not blind believers, just as with doubting Thomas, he provides us all with just what we need to believe him. I have many Atheist friends who are pretty annoyed by such arguments, seeing it as nothing more than wishful thinking and superstition. All of that said, specifically some of these personal evidences and reasons why I believe are below.

Cultural: I grew up in a Christian home in the bible belt of America, and its no secret that people typically adopt the religion of their families... I mind you, this proves nothing about God or Christianity except that culture is inevitably a part of it, just as in any religion or the lack of as in Atheism.

Science: As I said above, it doesn't prove anything about God as that's not within any scientific scope. But through science, we have been able to see so much beauty in this universe, I have personally seen things underground in caves and in the night sky that provoke an enormous emotional impact. This beauty I credit to God.

Historical: Christianity, especially the Catholic version, has such a rich history. The evidence provided in the Church is enormous to me. God has left his fingerprint in the history of his Church, both the Christian Church and the Jewish Tradition before it. This is part of what brought me out of my own experience with Atheism.

Personal: OK I admit there are plenty of people out there with fuzzy feelings abounding about whatever they believe. The quakers, shakers, tongue speakers, slain in the spirit people, and even the quiet reverent types, all will state this as evidence. There are times when I think I may just be delusional, but I can't get around these things, as I imagine many other Christians can't. Who is Richard Dawkins to say whether its God or not? He's wrapped up in his own delusions that we're all idiots, sick, in need of treatment, and that somehow his science has some authority and ability to speak about things beyond its scope. These things are personal evidence, and I would expect that nobody would think their personal evidence would be enough to convince you, but it may be enough to make you wonder and look, and through that seeking you may have your own experience.

Negative vs. Positive: I can't say this for all Atheists, but a lot of them I know are very evangelistic of their ideas. My issue with this is simple, they try and get people to not believe in anything. They try and get people to toss those beliefs away, in the name of some enlightened view of purposeless existence, making the most of your consciousness while it lasts. However you wish to romanticize this view, it is very negative to me. Why ask people to throw away something that gives them hope and helps them be better people? Its true that many religious people are hell-bent on forcing their principals on people, but we can all agree that these people have lost their objectivity. Christians should be speaking out against that mess as much as the Atheists do... The Christian message is very positive - follow Jesus and he'll help you be a better person, he'll give you hope, he'll take care of the things that ails you, God is your Father come home as the prodigal son did. Why take that away from anybody?

I'll conclude this lengthy bit with this, we are both in the struggle of our lives, trying to take hold of an idea way beyond the capability of the human mind. Why are we here? Is there purpose to all this? What is your purpose? Is Richard Dawkins' ultimate purpose to cause people to question their beliefs in something that cannot be proven or disproven? My personal evidences are very personal and mean a lot to me, they bolster my Faith. Do you have any positive personal experiences that have bolstered your lack of Faith and reassured you in your lack of hope of an afterlife through Atheism? In all sincerity, as someone else who has and currently struggles with these questions, I would like to hear if you are willing to share.
Peace

[russell007]

Originally Posted by BryanM27

There we go! That's exactly where I was trying to get to. That moment when there really was nothing. No energy, no matter, nothing but the empty void.

Its true science cant explain everything and what gets when when the explination is still in the "theory state" our educational system teaches the theory People come out of the class and forget all about it being a theory and take it as truth.

[catholic-rcia]

Why?

I remember about 6 years ago a man walked into our Church to ask questions about our faith. Just like you are asking here. He was a USU professor who taught philosophy. His name was Chuck. He was also an atheist. I could go over the next year of how he became a Catholic but that would just sound like all the other conversion stories. It still cannot answer your question. But I can say this about this man regarding our faith in God.

One year ago he was lying in the hospital due to a brain hemorrhage with his wife Louis at his side. He was not expected to live through the night. I visited Louise at her side to give some quiet comfort. When I left I told her I would be back later. As I was returning to the hospital God asked me to go get Louise something . I asked what? God told me to go to the grocery store nearby the hospital. I said why a Grocery store? Do you want me to get her groceries? Well I went in. and I saw flowers and God told me no not these flowers. I agreed thinking at that time about a funeral, Chuck was not dead! I then went off of my own self and began to get things for her to eat like oranges and apples and Bananas. Yes this will be good for her as she probably is not eating. As I went to the check out line God said no, not Fruit! Ask Chuck what he wants to get her. (Really) I am like ok Chuck what do you want me to get? I am in a grocery store! I went with the prompting and started to walk through the Store. I turned a corner right past the Produce section where I had been a few minutes ago and there it was right in front of me. Seeds of flowers. So I am standing there in front of the seeds with a dilemma. Ok which ones? Right then I saw the wild flower packets at the bottom left. I knew that those were the ones. I knew then what I was in this store to get. I bought them and placed them in my pocket and proceeded to go back to the hospital. When I arrived at the floor that he was on my Priest was walking towards me. Chuck had passed away while I was in the Grocery store.

Every thing told me to leave, that she had enough friends in that room. As I went o leave I turned and walked in instead. Why? Because God asked me to. At this point the seeds in my pocket were far from my train of thought. I walked in the room and set next to Church, next to Louise who was of course distraught. I sat there for several minutes with nothing to say. What could I possibly say as the love of her life was gone.

Then I remembered the seeds. I turned and politely asked everyone to go out for just a moment. They all went out of the room. I looked at Louise and said “Chuck wants you to have these. She said what? Then I pulled the wild flower seeds from my pocket and handed them to her. She stood up and began to cry saying how did you know? How did you know? Now I am crying as well and I said know what?

She said, that this is what Chuck and I Loved to do most, search for all kinds of different wild flowers and try and learn about each one. I told her simply these are from Chuck Loiuse, he wanted you to have them. In no way was this about me, this was all about Chuck, Louise and God. I just happened to be paying attention on that particular day. The greatest joy I received was in being a tool for God. Plus I was given this story to tell to people like you. Its all very much real.

In Christ
Rich

[russell007]

[quote=allenirvan;6699213]I want to make a point here about Atheists and science, and in conclusion I'll tell you why I believe in the Christian God.

Allen,

I wonder if the OP has stopped monitoring his/her blog. I dont see any replies. Or it could be he/she is gathering information for a book? and has no intentions of replying.

It could be Bill Maher and hes going to post this on his next anti-religous HBO Special LOL

[catholic-rcia]

Originally Posted by BryanM27

There we go! That's exactly where I was trying to get to. That moment when there really was nothing. No energy, no matter, nothing but the empty void.

Not even an empty void right?
Rich

[allenirvan]

[quote=russell007;6699507]

Originally Posted by allenirvan

I want to make a point here about Atheists and science, and in conclusion I'll tell you why I believe in the Christian God.

Allen,

I wonder if the OP has stopped monitoring his/her blog. I dont see any replies. Or it could be he/she is gathering information for a book? and has no intentions of replying.

It could be Bill Maher and hes going to post this on his next anti-religous HBO Special LOL

Well, if that's the case, I certainly gave him a lot of words to twist around in my longwinded reply... And what is it with these people, they get a good discussion going and just leave or cut it off. Perhaps they didn't expect good answers?

[russell007]

[quote=allenirvan;6699648]

Originally Posted by russell007

Well, if that's the case, I certainly gave him a lot of words to twist around in my longwinded reply... And what is it with these people, they get a good discussion going and just leave or cut it off. Perhaps they didn't expect good answers?

Hey Allen I just noticed you were from OK I was born and raised in OKC I reside in Texas now. Always nice to talk with someone from back home

I knew you were good people... God Bless you

[Justin1982]

Originally Posted by allenirvan

Who is Richard Dawkins to say whether its God or not?

I honestly don't see how many atheists don't see this man as a man of faith, faith in chance is still faith. Unfortunately for him, to believe in his faith you have to have faith that he is feeding you the truth. I haven't seen his science or the science that he claims as gospel truth so in other words the atheist has to believe in humanity to tell the truth because I would venture to say that most atheists haven't seen any of this scientific evidence against God or His Creation. One major appeal of Christianity is that you can have an IQ of 5 or 500 and there is something bound to appeal to you if only people would open their mind to possibility. I personally didn't have a strong faith until I started dating the woman who is now my wife. We have some pretty deep and meaningful conversations regarding societies shortfalls and all of them could be solved by more strong Christians in the world. There is always bound to be corruption because we are imperfect beings but overall we will live in a far better society.

[RebeccaJ]

Originally Posted by Atheism123

Well, this is supposed to be a forum asking answers from catholics, so I come here to do so.

I want to know why you believe in Christianity/Judaism/Pastafarnarianism/Whatever. I'm not some random trolling atheist, I genuinely want to know why you believe the things you do.

The mystery of faith. I spent over a year trying to figure this one out, when I was an atheist. Embarked on a little experiment to see if I could find it.

I watched people in church pray, and wondered why they had faith and I did not. I listened to people wax on about God, and wondered how they could say the things they said.

There is only one way for you to know the how or the why of faith, and that is to find it. God is love, and if you follow that love, He will guide you.

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Originally Posted by catholic-rcia

Why?

I remember about 6 years ago a man walked into our Church to ask questions about our faith. Just like you are asking here. He was a USU professor who taught philosophy. His name was Chuck. He was also an atheist. I could go over the next year of how he became a Catholic but that would just sound like all the other conversion stories. It still cannot answer your question. But I can say this about this man regarding our faith in God.

One year ago he was lying in the hospital due to a brain hemorrhage with his wife Louis at his side. He was not expected to live through the night. I visited Louise at her side to give some quiet comfort. When I left I told her I would be back later. As I was returning to the hospital God asked me to go get Louise something . I asked what? God told me to go to the grocery store nearby the hospital. I said why a Grocery store? Do you want me to get her groceries? Well I went in. and I saw flowers and God told me no not these flowers. I agreed thinking at that time about a funeral, Chuck was not dead! I then went off of my own self and began to get things for her to eat like oranges and apples and Bananas. Yes this will be good for her as she probably is not eating. As I went to the check out line God said no, not Fruit! Ask Chuck what he wants to get her. (Really) I am like ok Chuck what do you want me to get? I am in a grocery store! I went with the prompting and started to walk through the Store. I turned a corner right past the Produce section where I had been a few minutes ago and there it was right in front of me. Seeds of flowers. So I am standing there in front of the seeds with a dilemma. Ok which ones? Right then I saw the wild flower packets at the bottom left. I knew that those were the ones. I knew then what I was in this store to get. I bought them and placed them in my pocket and proceeded to go back to the hospital. When I arrived at the floor that he was on my Priest was walking towards me. Chuck had passed away while I was in the Grocery store.

Every thing told me to leave, that she had enough friends in that room. As I went o leave I turned and walked in instead. Why? Because God asked me to. At this point the seeds in my pocket were far from my train of thought. I walked in the room and set next to Church, next to Louise who was of course distraught. I sat there for several minutes with nothing to say. What could I possibly say as the love of her life was gone.

Then I remembered the seeds. I turned and politely asked everyone to go out for just a moment. They all went out of the room. I looked at Louise and said “Chuck wants you to have these. She said what? Then I pulled the wild flower seeds from my pocket and handed them to her. She stood up and began to cry saying how did you know? How did you know? Now I am crying as well and I said know what?

She said, that this is what Chuck and I Loved to do most, search for all kinds of different wild flowers and try and learn about each one. I told her simply these are from Chuck Loiuse, he wanted you to have them. In no way was this about me, this was all about Chuck, Louise and God. I just happened to be paying attention on that particular day. The greatest joy I received was in being a tool for God. Plus I was given this story to tell to people like you. Its all very much real.

In Christ
Rich

wow!!! Thanks for sharing that.

[benidict]

Originally Posted by catholic-rcia

Why?

I remember about 6 years ago a man walked into our Church to ask questions about our faith. Just like you are asking here. He was a USU professor who taught philosophy. His name was Chuck. He was also an atheist. I could go over the next year of how he became a Catholic but that would just sound like all the other conversion stories. It still cannot answer your question. But I can say this about this man regarding our faith in God.

One year ago he was lying in the hospital due to a brain hemorrhage with his wife Louis at his side. He was not expected to live through the night. I visited Louise at her side to give some quiet comfort. When I left I told her I would be back later. As I was returning to the hospital God asked me to go get Louise something . I asked what? God told me to go to the grocery store nearby the hospital. I said why a Grocery store? Do you want me to get her groceries? Well I went in. and I saw flowers and God told me no not these flowers. I agreed thinking at that time about a funeral, Chuck was not dead! I then went off of my own self and began to get things for her to eat like oranges and apples and Bananas. Yes this will be good for her as she probably is not eating. As I went to the check out line God said no, not Fruit! Ask Chuck what he wants to get her. (Really) I am like ok Chuck what do you want me to get? I am in a grocery store! I went with the prompting and started to walk through the Store. I turned a corner right past the Produce section where I had been a few minutes ago and there it was right in front of me. Seeds of flowers. So I am standing there in front of the seeds with a dilemma. Ok which ones? Right then I saw the wild flower packets at the bottom left. I knew that those were the ones. I knew then what I was in this store to get. I bought them and placed them in my pocket and proceeded to go back to the hospital. When I arrived at the floor that he was on my Priest was walking towards me. Chuck had passed away while I was in the Grocery store.

Every thing told me to leave, that she had enough friends in that room. As I went o leave I turned and walked in instead. Why? Because God asked me to. At this point the seeds in my pocket were far from my train of thought. I walked in the room and set next to Church, next to Louise who was of course distraught. I sat there for several minutes with nothing to say. What could I possibly say as the love of her life was gone.

Then I remembered the seeds. I turned and politely asked everyone to go out for just a moment. They all went out of the room. I looked at Louise and said “Chuck wants you to have these. She said what? Then I pulled the wild flower seeds from my pocket and handed them to her. She stood up and began to cry saying how did you know? How did you know? Now I am crying as well and I said know what?

She said, that this is what Chuck and I Loved to do most, search for all kinds of different wild flowers and try and learn about each one. I told her simply these are from Chuck Loiuse, he wanted you to have them. In no way was this about me, this was all about Chuck, Louise and God. I just happened to be paying attention on that particular day. The greatest joy I received was in being a tool for God. Plus I was given this story to tell to people like you. Its all very much real.

In Christ
Rich

this story is so AWESOME! loved it. peace

[eucharisteo]

Originally Posted by Atheism123

Well, this is supposed to be a forum asking answers from catholics, so I come here to do so.

I want to know why you believe in Christianity/Judaism/Pastafarnarianism/Whatever. I'm not some random trolling atheist, I genuinely want to know why you believe the things you do.

Because I am either crazy or have seen evidence with my own eyes and heard with my own ears and felt with my whole being. I have seen genuine miracles. Something that can not be explained in my duaghter, complete rediagnosis after 2 specialist diagnosed her clearly something that should not have simply disappeared. I have seen my guardian angel that saved my own life in a severe automobile accident, I heard a voice three times tell me to marry my wife even though I was planning on going to the seminary to give my life to God. I have seen demons, frightening moments. I have felt Him embrace me like a child, holding me and soothing my spirit. I find comfort in Him, knowing that He is there watching over me, you too. He loves me. If He can love me I know He loves you. I have done horrible things in my life, repented and made every effort for retribution. I don't suffer from psychosis. I'm perfectly sane. In fact, it does not run in my family at all. Depression, yes, but not severe stuff like bi-polar.

I see God in others, whether they believe in him or not. I see God in nature. I see God in science. Ever looked at living things through a microscope - especially a powerful one? Amazing. And then, after all of these evidences I simply believe. Believing in Him is a blessing, a gift. I feel bad for those that do not have the gift of faith. I find them to be truly poor and for that I pray they one day come to know what I've experienced.

And if doubt enters in, at least I lived a moral upstanding life conducive to loving my neighbor as myself. If like is meaningless then I don't want to live. It's that simple for me.

[Shredderbeam]

Originally Posted by BryanM27

It's never bothered me either. Like I said, assuming it's true you still have to account for how all that matter got there in the first place. It can neither be created nor destroyed, so what created that giant mass?

And what caused the ocean currents to cycle the way they do? Or the winds to blow the way they do? What sparked the evolution of single-cell organisms? What influenced them to join and split and become multi-cell organisms?

The more I study science, the more I believe that God is behind every small miracle that makes our world work.

You're using "God of the gaps" logic here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

Originally Posted by allenirvan

I want to make a point here about Atheists and science, and in conclusion I'll tell you why I believe in the Christian God.

Science cannot prove or disprove anything about God or any deity. If any deity created the universe from outside the universe, then how can science which measures this universe and draws conclusions from it measure something outside it? Its simply not logical to even bring science to the debate of God's existence. Now, you can prove all kinds of things about the human part of any deistic religion. Science has historically brought into question many church and religious teachings for example geocentricism, and the belief in a flat earth, but all this says nothing about God, just about the ignorance of the people. Christians and Atheists alike need to leave science at home for the God debate. That said, I understand this is difficult for the Atheist because most Atheists today strive to limit their beliefs to simply those things that can be proven by science. So I ask you OP, why are you asking about something that cannot be proven or disproven? It seems to me that the only type things you can believe as an Atheist is that if you jump, gravity will pull you down to the ground, that the earth orbits the sun, that a piece of letter size paper is reasonably close to 8.5" x 11"; these things we can prove with some confidence, but applicable ONLY within the appropriate measurable system. Atheism stands on one HUGE negative proof fallacy.

So, as a Christian, how am I any different? Will I say to you, if you can't prove its false then it must be true while you say to me if I can't prove its true then it must be false? Perhaps some will. I contend however that faith, not proof, is the key to knowing about God, that it is not a circular argument, that it is fully within the bounds of argument theory and logic, and that through it God has provided the necessary evidence to maintain and grow my belief and faith. My friend, we are not blind believers, just as with doubting Thomas, he provides us all with just what we need to believe him. I have many Atheist friends who are pretty annoyed by such arguments, seeing it as nothing more than wishful thinking and superstition. All of that said, specifically some of these personal evidences and reasons why I believe are below.

Cultural: I grew up in a Christian home in the bible belt of America, and its no secret that people typically adopt the religion of their families... I mind you, this proves nothing about God or Christianity except that culture is inevitably a part of it, just as in any religion or the lack of as in Atheism.

Science: As I said above, it doesn't prove anything about God as that's not within any scientific scope. But through science, we have been able to see so much beauty in this universe, I have personally seen things underground in caves and in the night sky that provoke an enormous emotional impact. This beauty I credit to God.

Historical: Christianity, especially the Catholic version, has such a rich history. The evidence provided in the Church is enormous to me. God has left his fingerprint in the history of his Church, both the Christian Church and the Jewish Tradition before it. This is part of what brought me out of my own experience with Atheism.

I'll conclude this lengthy bit with this, we are both in the struggle of our lives, trying to take hold of an idea way beyond the capability of the human mind. Why are we here? Is there purpose to all this? What is your purpose? Is Richard Dawkins' ultimate purpose to cause people to question their beliefs in something that cannot be proven or disproven? My personal evidences are very personal and mean a lot to me, they bolster my Faith. Do you have any positive personal experiences that have bolstered your lack of Faith and reassured you in your lack of hope of an afterlife through Atheism? In all sincerity, as someone else who has and currently struggles with these questions, I would like to hear if you are willing to share.
Peace

Atheism, if you take it in its weak form, doesn't rest upon a negative proof fallacy. It's simply a lack of belief in God. To sum it up: "I don't see any evidence of a God, therefore, I cannot reasonably believe that one exists."

Science provides people with a reliable method of evaluating claims. The role that science plays in defending atheism is the "lack of evidence" role. Science can evaluate the claims made by religion, and, if they turn out to be false, then there is no compelling reason to believe these claims.

I haven't had any personal experiences that bolstered my lack of faith. The main reason I don't believe is from continuous self-education in the sciences and in philosophy.

[eucharisteo]

Logic is good, but it only takes you so far. At one point the mind must join with the heart and God enters.