Do you go to Hell if you commit suicide? - Page 2

CMatt25 · #16 Jun 13, '10, 7:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHC

I will be praying for the repose of your friend's soul.

As others have stated, we do not know how the Lord judges these situations. But we can hope in His Mercy, which is great.

Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the Mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

Angela, I as well will keep your friend and you in my prayers. God bless you both and peace be with you in knowing your dear friend is in the hands of our all-merciful and loving God. Trust Him and His infinite wisdom and understanding by having faith you will indeed meet again in heaven. I have faith you will indeed. May God grant your dear friend eternal peace and peace to you as you trust Him in faith. Amen.

Timothysis · #17 Jun 13, '10, 7:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

All you are doing is telling me what the catholic church finally changed it's mind about.
You are not telling me why so many people for so long had to suffer her ignorance on the topic.

Suicide is STILL a grave sin; that has not changed. What you call "ignorance" has to do with the degree of culpability one has who commits the sin. In former days, more culpability was applied because of issues that are more commonly understood today. Don't we all suffer from someone's ignorance even today, too? If you are seeking perfection, you had better cast your glance Heavenward or you will wind up being disappointed.

StrawberryJam · #18 Jun 13, '10, 7:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothysis

Suicide is STILL a grave sin; that has not changed. What you call "ignorance" has to do with the degree of culpability one has who commits the sin. In former days, more culpability was applied because of issues that are more commonly understood today. Don't we all suffer from someone's ignorance even today, too? If you are seeking perfection, you had better cast your glance Heavenward or you will wind up being disappointed.

I'm not claiming moral authority and truth. The Catholic Church does, and did so and will do so.
And, was wrong.

CMatt25 · #19 Jun 13, '10, 7:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothysis

f you are seeking perfection, you had better cast your glance Heavenward or you will wind up being disappointed.

Now only if the Catholic Church understood this.

CMatt25 · #20 Jun 13, '10, 7:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

I'm not claiming moral authority and truth. The Catholic Church does, and did so and will do so.
And, was wrong.

Good pt. The Church can't be perfect and infallible on morals but not perfect and wrong all at the same time.

Timothysis · #21 Jun 13, '10, 8:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

I'm not claiming moral authority and truth. The Catholic Church does, and did so and will do so.
And, was wrong.

The Catholic Church STILL holds moral authority and Truth. Suicide is STILL a grave sin but the Church leaves it up to Christ to decide who will and will not suffer eternally because of it. The Church has NEVER declared anyone to be condemned because it is not Her place to do so.

So, exactly what chip do you have on your shoulder?

Timothysis · #22 Jun 13, '10, 8:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMatt25

Now only if the Catholic Church understood this.

The Church perfectly understands this; why do you think we pray constantly for those in charge?

CMatt25 · #23 Jun 13, '10, 8:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timothysis

The Church perfectly understands this; why do you think we pray constantly for those in charge?

It's always a good thing to pray for others. But to be assured they get it right even though they are already believed to be infallible on faith and morals?

Timothysis · #24 Jun 13, '10, 8:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMatt25

It's always a good thing to pray for others. But to be assured they get it right even though they are already believed to be infallible on faith and morals?

Huh???

**jmcrae** · #25 Jun 14, '10, 10:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

All you are doing is telling me what the catholic church finally changed it's mind about.
You are not telling me why so many people for so long had to suffer her ignorance on the topic.

You seem to be assuming that someone outside the Church knew differently. Is that what you're saying?

**jmcrae** · #26 Jun 14, '10, 10:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMatt25

It's always a good thing to pray for others. But to be assured they get it right even though they are already believed to be infallible on faith and morals?

We have to obey them because they are in charge. The fact that they are infallible under certain circumstances is a gift to us from God - it is not for their benefit, but for ours.

We would be required to obey them anyway, even if there were no circumstances under which they could ever be infallible.

Abeyta85 · #27 Jun 14, '10, 12:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Church Militant

I found these links up in the Ask An Apologist forum and they look good so I hope they help.

Here is the section from the Catechism on suicide.

I think this best sums it up, from there on its a guess, we are not to assume or judge.

clmowry · #28 Jun 14, '10, 1:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam

I'm not claiming moral authority and truth. The Catholic Church does, and did so and will do so.
And, was wrong.

What exactly has been Church teaching on the subject.

My "understanding" is that there has "always" been some consideration taken into account for a persons mental state, but I've never seen any actual church documents on the subject.

Does anyone have references to the actual texts? All I've seen are the statements from the current cannon law, not what proceeded them.

Chuck

**jmcrae** · #29 Jun 14, '10, 2:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by clmowry

What exactly has been Church teaching on the subject.

My "understanding" is that there has "always" been some consideration taken into account for a persons mental state, but I've never seen any actual church documents on the subject.

Does anyone have references to the actual texts? All I've seen are the statements from the current cannon law, not what proceeded them.

Chuck

Yes, even when suicides were not being buried on Church property, or given monuments, they were still not considered to be "definitely in Hell." Same as someone who dies while committing treachery against their country, or while committing a murder, doesn't get a monument, but we don't assume that they are definitely in Hell.

choy · #30 Jun 14, '10, 3:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcrae

Greater understanding of the psychological distress that leads to suicide. In former times, it was assumed that people were choosing to kill themselves willfully, and for the purpose of "murdering the whole world" as certain 19th century writers phrased it.

Today, while we still understand that suicide is an angry action, we also understand that people only become that angry when they are under unendurable stress, and when they have suffered a total mental collapse.

i agree. it takes a considerable amount of mental, emotional and spiritual anguish for one to perform suicide. the aspect of willfully commiting it is questionable. it is up to God to judge it because we are not sure what the state of that person's mental health is at the time of death. they could have lost rational thought and therefore the act is not willed