The Vows...

jimcav · #1 Jun 30, '10, 8:16 am

I am a lay member of the Confraternity of the Passion, which is part of the Passionist Congregation. Some of the members there have taken the vows of poverty, chastity and obediance, although they are private vows and not public like the religious priests and brothers take them. I am in discernment now myself, but I have to admit to wondering if it's possible to live them in a non-communal or secular lifestyle. I feel that family, marriage, work and other "worldly" responsibilities could get in the way. I am certainly ready to do more for the love of Him and the vows seem to be a wonderful way to not only give God the fruits of my life, but the whole tree.

I would love to hear from other lay people who are living the consecrated life and how they feel about this...

Thanks in advance!

Advocatus Fidei · #2 Jun 30, '10, 9:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcav

I am a lay member of the Confraternity of the Passion, which is part of the Passionist Congregation. Some of the members there have taken the vows of poverty, chastity and obediance, although they are private vows and not public like the religious priests and brothers take them. I am in discernment now myself, but I have to admit to wondering if it's possible to live them in a non-communal or secular lifestyle. I feel that family, marriage, work and other "worldly" responsibilities could get in the way. I am certainly ready to do more for the love of Him and the vows seem to be a wonderful way to not only give God the fruits of my life, but the whole tree.

I would love to hear from other lay people who are living the consecrated life and how they feel about this...

Thanks in advance!

As a married man you are in a community, your wife and children are your religious community and your house is your monastery.

Poverty is more than liveable, in the not to distant past it was the practice among Catholic families in both Ireland and France and I imagine in the rest of Christendom to that all the earnings of the individual members of a household would be handed over the the care of the wife as it was she who required the money to purchase those things necessary for the home, in this way the individual family members lived in a manner of personal poverty in that no one person owned the money it was owned by the household community and used by the wife for the family, this is the same way poverty is practiced in monasteries, the individual monks do not own anything but the monastic community does and in fact can be quite wealthy. This is hwy for example in the French monarchy the Queen was always head of the royal treasury not the King, it was an organic development from the lady of a household controlling the finances of the household.

The vow of chastity also is more than liveable, all it requires of the married man is to not commit adultery or self abuse pretty much as it is a vow of chastity in accordance with your state in life.

And obedience again is livable also, we are all expected to obey our superiors even if we have not taken vows to that extent.

In fact those vows are meant to be lived by all Christians regardless of whether they have taken vows or not, the truth according to St,. Thomas Aquinas is that God has called us all to the religious life even those of us whose vocation is to the married life.

Now this may require you to make changes in your lifestyle, even drastic changes, but they will be changes for the better and are certainly possible to do if you have the will to do so.

jimcav · #3 Jun 30, '10, 10:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Advocatus Fidei

As a married man you are in a community, your wife and children are your religious community and your house is your monastery.

Poverty is more than liveable, in the not to distant past it was the practice among Catholic families in both Ireland and France and I imagine in the rest of Christendom to that all the earnings of the individual members of a household would be handed over the the care of the wife as it was she who required the money to purchase those things necessary for the home, in this way the individual family members lived in a manner of personal poverty in that no one person owned the money it was owned by the household community and used by the wife for the family, this is the same way poverty is practiced in monasteries, the individual monks do not own anything but the monastic community does and in fact can be quite wealthy. This is hwy for example in the French monarchy the Queen was always head of the royal treasury not the King, it was an organic development from the lady of a household controlling the finances of the household.

The vow of chastity also is more than liveable, all it requires of the married man is to not commit adultery or self abuse pretty much as it is a vow of chastity in accordance with your state in life.

And obedience again is livable also, we are all expected to obey our superiors even if we have not taken vows to that extent.

In fact those vows are meant to be lived by all Christians regardless of whether they have taken vows or not, the truth according to St,. Thomas Aquinas is that God has called us all to the religious life even those of us whose vocation is to the married life.

Now this may require you to make changes in your lifestyle, even drastic changes, but they will be changes for the better and are certainly possible to do if you have the will to do so.

Thank you very much for a wonderful and thoughtful answer!

Your definitions of the vows really helped me to clear up some misconceptions I had, especially with how to deal with the vow of poverty. Your comparison of the monastery to the household was especially helpful and it really put things into perspective. It seems that I am really already living the vows for the most part and it shouldn't present to much of a change in my current life. But I will have to work to perfect them.

BTW, the Passionists take a fourth vow, to preach Christ Crucified whenever possible, something that I like to do to help others with their lives and problems.

You have really helped my discernment, thank you!

Advocatus Fidei · #4 Jun 30, '10, 11:02 am

A pleasure, God bless you

Lief Erikson · #5 Jul 1, '10, 10:56 am

You might find it a further blessing to ask the Passionist lay people you know, who have taken these vows, how they live them.

MaryTeresa2 · #6 Jul 1, '10, 7:52 pm

Wonderful posts here, so well put. As a lay person who is a member of a Secular Order, we too make a Promise to our Rule of Life and the same vows you mention. We live those promises out as you so well put, in the context of our station in life. Like any vow or promise made to God, they bear fruits that we can hardly imagine when we first make them. In the beginning we see the practical side, ask practical questions, 'can I do this?' but as we turn everything over to Him, He brings more Grace and Blessings than we could have imagined. He is on the other side of the vow, the Power that makes it what it is.... for our good, the good of those around us and for His Glory! May you be abundantly blessed!

albertziggy · #7 Jul 1, '10, 9:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryTeresa2

Wonderful posts here, so well put. As a lay person who is a member of a Secular Order, we too make a Promise to our Rule of Life and the same vows you mention. We live those promises out as you so well put, in the context of our station in life. Like any vow or promise made to God, they bear fruits that we can hardly imagine when we first make them. In the beginning we see the practical side, ask practical questions, 'can I do this?' but as we turn everything over to Him, He brings more Grace and Blessings than we could have imagined. He is on the other side of the vow, the Power that makes it what it is.... for our good, the good of those around us and for His Glory! May you be abundantly blessed!

Hi ma'am:

Just curious. In the Servite Secular Order, when can make private vows, upon profession, or do you need to wait for a certain period of time before you make them (like the Secular Carmelites). Thanks.

albertziggy

jimcav · #8 Jul 2, '10, 7:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryTeresa2

Wonderful posts here, so well put. As a lay person who is a member of a Secular Order, we too make a Promise to our Rule of Life and the same vows you mention. We live those promises out as you so well put, in the context of our station in life. Like any vow or promise made to God, they bear fruits that we can hardly imagine when we first make them. In the beginning we see the practical side, ask practical questions, 'can I do this?' but as we turn everything over to Him, He brings more Grace and Blessings than we could have imagined. He is on the other side of the vow, the Power that makes it what it is.... for our good, the good of those around us and for His Glory! May you be abundantly blessed!

Yes, I guess I'm still asking the practical questions, by I am fast ready to let it all go to His Divine Will.

I have discerned whether He is calling me to this way of life for awhile now, but I know in my heart that He is calling me to take these vows for his greater glory and I believe it is time to let myself go. I trust that He will show me the way to live these vows within my staion of life and I look foward to giving all of myself to Him. As you said MaryTeresa, the Grace and Blessings I will recieve will surely be more than I can imagine. I love the Passionists, their monastery, the confraternity and my spritual director there, Fr. Joseph Dunstan, what a wonderful and holy man! It all feels very right for me! Thank you!

MaryTeresa2 · #9 Jul 2, '10, 10:08 am

I have to apologise here for making my statement incorrectly in regards to vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. To vow these is not required of the Secular Order, we do however live and witness to these within our given state of life. Some people may and do chose to vow privately but that is not contained in our rule of life. I got my thoughts misplaced in my statement. If one is a vowed religious in the order, then of course those vows are made. As seculars we 'promise' in place of 'vow'. We live the same principles, we are chaste within our state of life, married or not, we witness to poverty and strive to live a simple life and help aleviate poverty, we are obedient within the order and our life situations. I again apologize for mixing thoughts on vows and promises in my statement as I was reading back and forth when answering. Please forgive me.

JReducation · #10 Jul 2, '10, 7:48 pm

When speaking of private vows make sure that you factor in the spirituality or the charims that you're following. The vows are applied differently from one religious family to another. Then there are individuals who make private vows but live according to a rule of their own, approved by Church authorities, of course.

Here's just one example. In the Franciscan tradition the vow of poverty means that one does not own property, whether you are a religious or a lay person. The vow of obedience includes the bishop as well as the superiors in the Franciscan family. For example, when the bishops voiced their opinions on the AZ immigration law, all who are vowed to live obedience according to the interpretation of St. Francis were silenced and bound to support the bishops. There is never an argument or a question about what a bishop says. The vow of chastity means celibacy in the Franciscan tradition. In other traditions it means chastity according to one's state in life.

Like this, each religious family has it's interpretation of the vows according to the mind and vision of the founder of that family. As I said, there are people who write their own rule of life and get approval from their local bishop.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

MaryTeresa2 · #11 Jul 3, '10, 8:01 am

Thank you so much Br. JR for helping with my fumbled statement. You expanded and gave so much more information than I was able to do. I am so grateful and sure the others appreciate your wealth of knowledge. I very much enjoy your posts. Blessings!

MaryTeresa2 · #12 Jul 3, '10, 12:36 pm

To further clarify as to the particular Promise of the OSSM; as I mentioned we Promise rather than Vow as the OSM do. (Privately made vows aside, such as one can be a consecrated virgin for example.) Ours states: The Promise is the act by which the candidate renews the consecration made at baptism, undertaking to live it according to the spirituality of the Servite Order, in solidarity with all the communities of the Servite family and in accordance with the Rule and Statutes of the Servite Secular Order. Next article states: By the Promise, the candidate is enrolled perpetually into the Secular Order of the Servants of Mary, and shares in the life of the whole Servite family. (Our Promise is for life.) I didn't want to leave any question or mis-statement. Other articles in the Rule state more clearly for example about living a life of 'simplicity and austerity' in witness of poverty... again, we live by example those principles but do not 'vow'. I meant in my original statement to say 'we live by our rule of life and the same principles of the vows you mentioned...' I feel better now, one missed word can really mess ya up and I didn't want to do that! Thanks for your patience while I fixed this!

jimcav · #13 Jul 3, '10, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JReducation

When speaking of private vows make sure that you factor in the spirituality or the charims that you're following. The vows are applied differently from one religious family to another.

I will be talking to the General Director of the Confraternity, Fr. Joseph, about this very issue on my next visit.

We will go over how a lay person can go about living out the vows according to the Passionist congregation and their specific charism. There charism calls us to proclaim Christ and Him Crucified. We are to find life and meaning in the Cross of Christ. The Crucified Christ will be our constant companion on our journey of faith. As a Passionist, we do take on a 4th vow, along with the evangelical vows, to always preach Christ Crucified whenever possible.

So I am looking forward to my next visit...

jimcav · #14 Jul 3, '10, 4:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryTeresa2

I have to apologise here for making my statement incorrectly in regards to vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. To vow these is not required of the Secular Order, we do however live and witness to these within our given state of life. Some people may and do chose to vow privately but that is not contained in our rule of life. I got my thoughts misplaced in my statement. If one is a vowed religious in the order, then of course those vows are made. As seculars we 'promise' in place of 'vow'. We live the same principles, we are chaste within our state of life, married or not, we witness to poverty and strive to live a simple life and help aleviate poverty, we are obedient within the order and our life situations. I again apologize for mixing thoughts on vows and promises in my statement as I was reading back and forth when answering. Please forgive me.

It can be a very confusing issue trying to word out the differences in vows, promises, orders, congregations, secular institutes etc. etc.. I'm lald you got it all worked out!

Br. JR is the foremost expert on the very tricky subject we're dealing with. I've learned alot from his posts and I'm glad he is around to help us all!

MaryTeresa2 · #15 Jul 3, '10, 4:50 pm

Thanks Jimcav,
Me too! It's hard and even many of us who are on the journey still get confused, one will find things in print saying one thing and in print saying another and both can be on official documents! Minor things really but here's another ticky one... Third Orders or Secular Orders? Once the lay person's branch of the Servites were Third Order Tertiaries... then it changed, now we are a full Order, officially Order of Secular Servants of Mary. We are not a third order or associate order... we are another expression of the same charism as the Friar Servants of Mary or any of the other of our family of Servites. Yet, clergy can be members... lay and clergy are opposites but secular and clergy are not... many do not understand that catch. We also have a Servite Institute... and so it goes.
I add my prayers for your journey to be abundantly blessed. Yes, where would we be without Br. JR! Thanks to both of you!
Your Sister in Christ Jesus and Our Blessed Mother,
MaryTeresa, OSSM