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  #1  
Old Jul 1, '10, 2:39 pm
Geremia Geremia is offline
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Default Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen blog proved, with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that illegal immigrants are almost always in a state of mortal sin.
Quote:
Why Being An Illegal Alien Is A Mortal Sin
This isn't exactly deep theological stuff here

Anyone remember the 10 Commandments? OK, I see a buncha hands being raised... good. Now, how many of you remember what constitutes mortal sin? Ohhhh, even more hands up, great! For those who forget, the conditions are as follows;

1- the matter itself is serious or grave
2- sufficient reflection
3- full consent of the will

Alrighty then... now I'm gonna focus on the 7th and 8th Commandment.

7. Thou shalt not steal. Few will doubt that at least a slim majority of illegals are paid under the table. Hence, no federal tax, no state tax, no FICA... nuttin'. Isn't purposeful tax evasion considered stealing? Sure is.

Should I even bring up job stealing? And don't give me that garbage that 'the illegals are doing the jobs that Americans won't do'. Someone did those jobs before the 12 million strong silent invasion took place, right? And there are plenty of high paying jobs that are being stolen by illegals; plumbers, electricians, framers, etc. And yes, those that knowingly hired illegals and subsequently fired hardworking American citizens are just as wrong.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. The Church has always taught that lying falls under the 8th Commandment. Ummm, being in this county, any country, illegally is lying, right? No amount of liberal verbal gymnastics can get around this simple, irrefutable fact.

Now with all that said, let's look again at the conditions that constitute mortal sin.

1. Breaking the immigration and taxation laws of this country pretty much constitute grave, wouldn't you say?

2. I doubt if many of the illegals were just taking a lovely stroll along the border one day and on a lark, decided to jump the fence. I also doubt that many of the illegals jumped the fence on a dare after a rough night of drinking at the Frat House.

3. I also seriously doubt if even a large minority of the illegals were forced to come here. It's a pretty safe bet that the overwhelming majority gave their full consent to illegally enter this nation.

OK, I'm ready for all the comments telling me what a racist I am. BRING IT ON, BABY!

And then here's something else I posted long ago and far away;
According the the USCCB website, the accolades for this gal include the following;

Her understanding of Catholic social teaching has informed her position on immigration reform. “I am passionate about insuring that there is a way for undocumented people to become lawful residents and citizens,” she says. “There are 12 million-plus people living in the shadows. As Catholics, we have a responsibility to help them feel welcome and find their place.”Anyone mind if I inject the official teaching of The Catholic Church?

#2241 - Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
Gee... in other words, the official teaching of The Church is that a sovereign nation actually CAN control their own borders?? And that the same sovereign nation actually CAN expect those who came to that nation legally to actually expected to obey the law??!! What a concept!
Why are bishops not teaching their flocks this? Instead, they constantly oppose any opposition not to deport illegals, going through theological gymnastics that it would actually increase crime rate, split up families, etc., when in fact it encourages people to break more laws and ultimately to offend God, from Whom all civil authority originates. But what about the state of the souls of the illegals? Why are not the bishops primarily caring for these souls? Also, why is immigration seemingly more important than abortion? Is it because the U.S. and the U.S. Catholic church is trying to make up for the 50 million missing U.S. citizens lost to abortion? Evil means (tolerating illegal activity) do not justify good ends (that the U.S. have more Catholics). Deus, adiuva nos.
  #2  
Old Jul 1, '10, 3:54 pm
JohnDamian JohnDamian is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Most instances of illegal immigration would not constitute a Mortal Sin, as most of the people doing it would not be commiting it with deliberate and complete consent.

Secondarily, illegal immigration is not in violation of the Ten Commandments and as such is not a Grave Matter. Being in another country "illegally" is not lying, unless the means for getting in directly involved decieving police or customs officers. If they were avoided entirely there is no lying.

It is also only theft if one steals money off the Government by not paying tax. If the individual immigrants either were not payed, were not payed enough, or suchlike it would not be a sin. For example, in England where I am from no one earning under about 18,000 dollars (10,000 pounds) has to pay a penny in income tax. So anyone coming over here and earning minimum wages would not be stealing.

Love thy neighbor - don't deport him.
  #3  
Old Jul 1, '10, 4:02 pm
mjanchondo1964 mjanchondo1964 is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

As a son of an illegal immigrant ( who worked his behind off so all his 8 children could have better God Given opportunitiies in this country- Not Yours- God,s Country) I cant imagine that your Beliefs are such that you would even dare to write-say-think in such a manner! Do you know that God Almighty in all his Wisdom never said that his doings were to profit anyone other than His Will!! How dare you even write this- I will Pray for You that Our Holy Mother will give you the Gift of Repenting and the Gift of showing COMPASSION to all our Brothers and Sisters who are not as Blessed as You- Would not Our Lord and King have such COMPASSION for you and Yours if God Almighty had placed you in a not so fortunate place in His World! I would summize that you are aware of this---- Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser,s and Give to God what is his!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I may not have said this right but i am more than certain that you understood! You Brother in Christ-Martin Anchondo. God be with you always!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  #4  
Old Jul 1, '10, 4:26 pm
CDNowak CDNowak is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjanchondo1964 View Post
Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser,s and Give to God what is his!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I may not have said this right but i am more than certain that you understood! You Brother in Christ-Martin Anchondo. God be with you always!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes you said that right. The issue of illegal immigration does require a more complex solution than either party will admit, essentially mercy toward those on the other side of the border, but justice in enforcing the law.
  #5  
Old Jul 1, '10, 4:27 pm
cjcapta cjcapta is offline
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Post Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geremia View Post
The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen blog proved, with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that illegal immigrants are almost always in a state of mortal sin.Why are bishops not teaching their flocks this? Instead, they constantly oppose any opposition not to deport illegals, going through theological gymnastics that it would actually increase crime rate, split up families, etc., when in fact it encourages people to break more laws and ultimately to offend God, from Whom all civil authority originates. But what about the state of the souls of the illegals? Why are not the bishops primarily caring for these souls? Also, why is immigration seemingly more important than abortion? Is it because the U.S. and the U.S. Catholic church is trying to make up for the 50 million missing U.S. citizens lost to abortion? Evil means (tolerating illegal activity) do not justify good ends (that the U.S. have more Catholics). Deus, adiuva nos.
I don't know about the other stuff, but if a person does not actually say/state they are a legal immigrant when they are illegal, it wouldn't break the 8th commandment of bearing false witness.
  #6  
Old Jul 1, '10, 4:43 pm
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Redratfish Redratfish is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDamian View Post
Most instances of illegal immigration would not constitute a Mortal Sin, as most of the people doing it would not be commiting it with deliberate and complete consent.

I'm assuming that you say this because they come here to support their family correct? Well, what if I kill someone, and steal their money so I can support my family? Could I do that? I didn't freely choose to do it, it was necessary.

Secondarily, illegal immigration is not in violation of the Ten Commandments and as such is not a Grave Matter. Being in another country "illegally" is not lying, unless the means for getting in directly involved decieving police or customs officers. If they were avoided entirely there is no lying.

Once again, based on your logic, something isn't bad unless you get caught. So I can kill someone, but if I don't get caught I'm find right? Cause no one can prove I did it right?


It is also only theft if one steals money off the Government by not paying tax. If the individual immigrants either were not payed, were not payed enough, or suchlike it would not be a sin. For example, in England where I am from no one earning under about 18,000 dollars (10,000 pounds) has to pay a penny in income tax. So anyone coming over here and earning minimum wages would not be stealing.

I'm not worried about money, but more about jobs. Despite what you may hear, legal people without jobs would do the jobs that illegals do. If they get paid they would do it. They are stealing that job from a person here legally. By supporting illegal immigration, you are also supporting theft.


Love thy neighbor - don't deport him.
Love thy neighbor, don't break their laws.
__________________
A Truth cannot contradict truth - St Thomas Aquinas
  #7  
Old Jul 2, '10, 10:55 pm
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Stylites Stylites is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redratfish View Post
Love thy neighbor, don't break their laws.
As if breaking Caesar's laws is itself some terrible sin, as if whatsoever the Divine Caesar says is the divine truth.

There are many perfectly lawful things a person can do which are very sinful, just as there are laws which are a sin to follow or adhere to. Catholics have a bigger picture in mind than whatsoever Caesar or tribal justice demands.

.
  #8  
Old Jul 2, '10, 11:08 pm
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Stylites Stylites is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geremia View Post
The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen blog proved, with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that illegal immigrants are almost always in a state of mortal sin. . . .
Maybe it would behoove you to follow the teachings of the Church rather than the musings and misinterpretations of bloggers, unless your Gospel says: "O bloggers, those sins you retain are retained . . ."

.
  #9  
Old Jul 2, '10, 11:13 pm
Black_Rose Black_Rose is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
I'm assuming that you say this because they come here to support their family correct? Well, what if I kill someone, and steal their money so I can support my family? Could I do that? I didn't freely choose to do it, it was necessary.
I personally believe "mortal sins" are extremely rare because our actions are committed with "free and deliberate consent". For instance, our free will does not grant us sovereignty over ourselves since we are constrained by physiologically and mental limitations which are influenced by our environment and genetics. In addition, free will does not grant us little control of our circumstances because have limited ability, individually, to alter our environments -- no one can control whether or not they would be born in poverty. Poverty and its humiliation and despair usually breeds desperation.


Quote:
I'm not worried about money, but more about jobs. Despite what you may hear, legal people without jobs would do the jobs that illegals do. If they get paid they would do it. They are stealing that job from a person here legally. By supporting illegal immigration, you are also supporting theft.
I personally do not believe that illegal aliens are thieves for "stealing" jobs from the natives. Not that I condone the macroeconomic phenomenon of "illegal immigration" since I find it to have a negative impact on the labor market by increasing the supply of labor and on social solidarity, but many illegal aliens make their decision out of economic/financial duress. Furthermore, why do self-identified conservatives tend to blame the illegals themselves, seeing them as morally culpable agents responsible for the all of detrimental effects of their presence in the the labor market, when those with political influence permit them to arrive despite saying rhetoric against illegal immigration?
  #10  
Old Jul 2, '10, 11:36 pm
Viki63 Viki63 is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

A farmer here in eastern Washington was forced to hire workers from Jamaica when unable to find Americans willing to work picking fruit.
I personally tried picking tomatoes years ago and found it back breaking, not worth the effort. But then I was able to get an education and pursue a career to support my family; others aren't so fortunate.
People have always immigrated to support their families. The government of Mexico needs to take some responsibility for its citizens, instead of pushing their poor onto the US.
  #11  
Old Jul 2, '10, 11:46 pm
Black_Rose Black_Rose is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viki63 View Post
A farmer here in eastern Washington was forced to hire workers from Jamaica when unable to find Americans willing to work picking fruit.
I personally tried picking tomatoes years ago and found it back breaking, not worth the effort. But then I was able to get an education and pursue a career to support my family; others aren't so fortunate.
People have always immigrated to support their families. The government of Mexico needs to take some responsibility for its citizens, instead of pushing their poor onto the US.
Most people will do the job if there is sufficient compensation. It is indeed a myth that there are jobs that most Americans would not do.
  #12  
Old Jul 2, '10, 11:49 pm
Viki63 Viki63 is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

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Originally Posted by Black_Rose View Post
Most people will do the job if there is sufficient compensation. It is indeed a myth that there are jobs that most Americans would not do.
$17.00 an hour isn't enough for you? I believe that's what the farmer was offering.
  #13  
Old Jul 2, '10, 11:53 pm
Black_Rose Black_Rose is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

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Originally Posted by Viki63 View Post
$17.00 an hour isn't enough for you? I believe that's what the farmer was offering.
Clicking on the link you provided, it does not provide a wage rate. BTW, does the $17 a hour include benefits such as health care?
  #14  
Old Jul 3, '10, 5:21 am
Desertsailor Desertsailor is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

Sin is involved in the illegal immagration business. The coyotes who bring the people across the border are the sinners. Sometimes they beat, rob, kill, rape, and kidnap the people. They leave them to die in the desert. They kidnap the young women or boys and sell them into slavery maybe into the sex trade or something else.
  #15  
Old Jul 3, '10, 7:35 am
Geremia Geremia is offline
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Default Re: Illegal Immigration a Mortal Sin

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Originally Posted by Stylites View Post
As if breaking Caesar's laws is itself some terrible sin, as if whatsoever the Divine Caesar says is the divine truth.
Are you saying that laws protecting a State's sovereignty are unjust, i.e., not in accordance with natural nor divine law? This is not what the Catechism says, as quoted in the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stylites View Post
There are many perfectly lawful things a person can do which are very sinful, just as there are laws which are a sin to follow or adhere to. Catholics have a bigger picture in mind than whatsoever Caesar or tribal justice demands.
This is true, but it does not prove that laws protecting sovereignty are automatically unjust.
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