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  #1  
Old Jul 13, '10, 5:47 am
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ronin67 ronin67 is offline
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Default The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Many protestants believe the Eucharist is the re-sacrificing of Christ over and over again. What does Catholic doctrine say in the different counsels and other historical documentation on this? The Holy Bible says it was a once and for all perfect sacrifice from our Lord and Savior for all those who repent of their sins and accept him as their Lord and Savior. I subscribe to wretched radio and Todd Friel talks about this with a Catholic caller on his podcast. If anyone would like to hear it. Please tell me.

May God Bless!

Ed
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  #2  
Old Jul 13, '10, 5:57 am
smithm29 smithm29 is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

The Mass is a re-enactment of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary.

Technically, since God is timeless and eternal, you could say that the initial sacrifice is a continuous one, and the priest's reenactment during each mass is united with it. I think?
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  #3  
Old Jul 13, '10, 6:31 am
AwGusTeen AwGusTeen is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin67 View Post
Many protestants believe the Eucharist is the re-sacrificing of Christ over and over again. What does Catholic doctrine say in the different counsels and other historical documentation on this?
There are tons of articles here on CAF. For a look at the historical documentation, you could start with this one:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp


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Originally Posted by ronin67 View Post
The Holy Bible says it was a once and for all perfect sacrifice from our Lord and Savior for all those who repent of their sins and accept him as their Lord and Savior.
While I agree that as Christians we will necessarilly view Jesus Lord and Savior, I don't think things like accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior or saying the sinner's prayer are shown in scripture as the way to salvation.

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Originally Posted by ronin67 View Post
I subscribe to wretched radio and Todd Friel talks about this with a Catholic caller on his podcast. If anyone would like to hear it. Please tell me.

May God Bless!

Ed
I don't know who Todd Friel is, but if he holds the Eucharist as purely symbolic, then he is clearly going against scripture and 2000 years of Church teaching.
Send the link and I'll give him a listen (or perhaps a call).

Peace!
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  #4  
Old Jul 13, '10, 6:46 am
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cathdoki cathdoki is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

I just checked out the site. It doesn't seem to be Catholic so I would not be surprised to see that the Eucharist is just a symbol.

I guess a first question would be, why would a Catholic go to a non-Catholic radio show for answers on Catholicism. A quick glance at the site seems to indicate that it is not anti-Catholic, but there are shows out there that are Catholic if your looking to have questions answered.
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  #5  
Old Jul 13, '10, 8:11 am
SunnaB16 SunnaB16 is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithm29 View Post
The Mass is a re-enactment of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary.

Technically, since God is timeless and eternal, you could say that the initial sacrifice is a continuous one, and the priest's reenactment during each mass is united with it. I think?
You could also say that the Mass is a re-presenting of Christ`s sacrifice on Calvary. For a non-Catholic, this would (probably?) be a safer and more accurate word than "re-enactment"......
As you say, from God`s point of view, it`s eternal; and for us, it`s forever: from the beginning of Creation, onwards. The One Sacrifice.
During the Mass, we`re mystically present at Calvary.

What we have to impress on non-Catholics (and a lot of Catholics, unfortunately) is that the Church DOES NOT teach that Christ is suffering and dying over and over again.

Last edited by SunnaB16; Jul 13, '10 at 8:24 am.
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  #6  
Old Jul 13, '10, 8:26 am
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DCNBILL DCNBILL is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

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Originally Posted by SunnaB16 View Post
You could also say that the Mass is a re-presenting of Christ`s sacrifice on Calvary. For a non-Catholic, this would (probably?) be a safer and more accurate word than "re-enactment"......
As you say, from God`s point of view, it`s eternal; and for us, it`s forever: from the beginning of Creation, onwards. The One Sacrifice.
During the Mass, we`re mystically present at Calvary.

What we have to impress on non-Catholics (and a lot of Catholics, unfortunately) is that the Church DOES NOT teach that Christ is suffering and dying over and over again.
One might even go one step further and say that the Mass brings The Sacrifice of Calvary into the "now".
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  #7  
Old Jul 13, '10, 10:42 am
Robert Burns Robert Burns is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin67 View Post
Many protestants believe the Eucharist is the re-sacrificing of Christ over and over again. What does Catholic doctrine say in the different counsels and other historical documentation on this? The Holy Bible says it was a once and for all perfect sacrifice from our Lord and Savior for all those who repent of their sins and accept him as their Lord and Savior. I subscribe to wretched radio and Todd Friel talks about this with a Catholic caller on his podcast. If anyone would like to hear it. Please tell me.

May God Bless!

Ed
Mass is the Sacrifice of the Mass. (Singular) Jesus died once. Each Mass is The Sacrifice since each time the Words of Consecration result in transubstantiation - the Sacred Host and the contents of the Chalice become the Body and Blood (under both species). It doesnt matter how many billions of times a valid Mass is offered to GOD in propitiation - each time it is the real body and the real blood of Jesus. There is only one Jesus.

Pax
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  #8  
Old Jul 13, '10, 10:46 am
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cathdoki cathdoki is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

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Originally Posted by DCNBILL View Post
One might even go one step further and say that the Mass brings The Sacrifice of Calvary into the "now".
Ya know DCNBILL, you may have come up with the simple and best way to describe it. As has already been posted, to God, there are no time constraints.
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  #9  
Old Jul 13, '10, 10:50 am
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NeedImprovement NeedImprovement is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin67 View Post
Many protestants believe the Eucharist is the re-sacrificing of Christ over and over again. What does Catholic doctrine say in the different counsels and other historical documentation on this? The Holy Bible says it was a once and for all perfect sacrifice from our Lord and Savior for all those who repent of their sins and accept him as their Lord and Savior. I subscribe to wretched radio and Todd Friel talks about this with a Catholic caller on his podcast. If anyone would like to hear it. Please tell me.

May God Bless!

Ed
I'm trying to simplify - hope this doesn't confuse you Ed :

A common way we look at it is that are two dimensions to our Blessed Lord's Sacrifice at Calvary -
  • His Passion
  • His Action

His Passion - everything that happened to Him, is sometimes (for the sake of explanation) referred to as the "exterior" Sacrifice.

His Action - His offering to the Father, for our sake ,of everything that happened during His Passion, is the corresponding "interior Sacrifice".

We say Christ paid the price once for all, and He cannot die again. So we say that during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass , Christ offers Himself in an "unbloody" manner - big difference here between the word "unbloody" and the word "bloodless".

So that re-presentation (being made present again) of the Sacrifice is centred on His "interior" Sacrifice (offering to the Father), but it fully embodies all the merits of His sacred Passion. Everything (prayers) we bring to the Mass, Christ takes them to himself and offers them to the Father too. Basically, we all join in the one offering, but only through Him, with Him and in Him. It would be important to note here, that there are varying degrees of comprehension of the aforementioned among Catholics. We are sort of at different levels or individual speeds , if you will.

There is some mystery involved too - we say an "unbloody" (not "bloodless") manner, but Jesus is fully and personally present in the consacrated Species - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. And if we were able to fully understand it, then we wouldn't call it a mystery. But , as I heard Fr. John Corapi once say: "Christ said, 'Take this and eat it' - He didn't say, 'Take this and understand it'."

When asked of what mind we should be when we attend Mass, St. Padre Pio replied - "the same as if you were at Calvary."

So some of it is a mystery, but we'll never be closer to the foot of the actual Cross than we are when attending Holy Mass.

One thing you might be able to pick up, is how, without the interior sacrifice (we could use the example of anyone's suffering here) the exterior sacrifice would have very little value.

God Bless you too Ed.
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  #10  
Old Jul 13, '10, 1:01 pm
Thomas58 Thomas58 is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin67 View Post
Many protestants believe the Eucharist is the re-sacrificing of Christ over and over again. What does Catholic doctrine say in the different counsels and other historical documentation on this? The Holy Bible says it was a once and for all perfect sacrifice from our Lord and Savior for all those who repent of their sins and accept him as their Lord and Savior. I subscribe to wretched radio and Todd Friel talks about this with a Catholic caller on his podcast. If anyone would like to hear it. Please tell me.

May God Bless!

Ed
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the unbloody, clean Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary, re-enacted under the appearances of bread and wine as instituted by Christ at the Last Super and repeated or continued up to the present day and unto the end of the world.
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  #11  
Old Jul 13, '10, 5:53 pm
Bluegoat Bluegoat is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

Just curious - which groups say that it is a re-sacrifice?
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  #12  
Old Jul 13, '10, 6:27 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: The re-sacrifice of Christ????

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Even though many Catholics do not understand the Mass, it is good for a Christian to know as much about it as possible. From What and Why of Catholicism, Imprimatur Cardinal Spellman, "The sacrifice of the Mass forms a pivot upon which all else turns. If it is what Catholics believe it is, it is the greatest manifestation of the love of God for man and the most magnificent testimonial to the validity of Catholicism; but if it be false, it is the worst farce and blasphemy ever perpetrated upon God or man, and the Catholic faith collapses into nothingness."

From The Catholic Catechism by John Hardon, S.J., "The sacrifice on the altar is no mere commemoration of Calvary, but a true and proper act of sacrifice whereby Christ, the high priest, by an unbloody immolation offers himself a most acceptable victim to the eternal Father, as he did on the cross." (page 466)

Catholics admit that the Mass has developed over the centuries. Priest Karl Adam, in The Spirit of Catholicism, "We Catholics acknowledge readily without shame, nay, with pride, that Catholicism cannot be identified simply and wholly with primitive Christianity."

One of the major points of development was the doctrine of Transubstantiation. This was explained by the greatest Roman Catholic theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, using the philosophy of Aristotle. Aristotle taught that everything has two properties which he called Essence and Appearance. Aquinas renamed these Substance and Accidents.

Transubstantiation can be explained by breaking up the word. "Substance" is the root, and "trans" means to go over (transcontinental, one side of the continent to the other). "ation" is the part of the word that speaks of action. Transubstantiation is the action of something going from one substance to another.

They believe the wafer BECOMES Jesus Christ. The substance has changed from a wafer to Christ, while the appearance, or accidents, remain the same. They say this is proved by proving, as Aristotle did, that accidents can change while substance remains the same. Fifty years from now your appearance will have changed, but you will still be substantially the same person. Water can be frozen or boiled; in either case, the substance remains the same but the accidents change.

Thomas Aquinas reasoned that if accidents can change while substance remains the same, the reverse can also be true - accidents can remain the same while substance changes. Although the former can be proved, the latter cannot be, but Aquinas said that since God can do anything, and it was fitting that He perform transubstantiation, He did it!

After Vatican 2, Paul VI introduced the New Mass - communal aspect stressed, still the same. There are still the four vital parts of the Mass intact - offertory, consecration, elevation, and the priest consuming the wafer. They often sing Protestant hymns, like Amazing Grace

The Mass has been called a repetition of Calvary. But repetitions are in order only when the initial act did not complete the task (Illus.: if Im knock at your door and you don't come,. I will repeat my knock. But when you come to the door I don't keep knocking.)

Mass has been called a continuation of Calvary, but if a serial story in a magazine says "To be continued", it doesn't say "The End" on the same page. Jesus Christ said "It is finished"; the priest says, "To be continued."

Mass has been called a re-enactment of Calvary, but a school reenacting the signing of the Declaration of Independence does not declare war on England.

Mass has been a memorial, but a war memorial does not win the war.

Mass has been called a demonstration of Calvary, as if God rolled back the years to demonstrate what Jesus did on Calvary. If He did, the Mass would have equal authority and power as the initial sacrifice, and yet no Catholic receives infinite salvation by going to Mass.

Mass is the antithesis of Calvary - the priest disproves the Mass by repeating it. An Infinite Savior demolishes the Mass.

The Catholic Church, which is supposed to never change, put out an authoritative (but not infallible) book in 1913. It was written by Priest Joseph Baierl and published by The Seminary Press complete with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/SN9.html
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