Will John Paul II become "John Paul the Great" - Page 2

ChiefCounsellor · #16 Apr 4, '05, 10:22 am

He is already being called John Paul The Great by the Knights of Columbus

http://www.kofc.org/index.cfm

+veritas+ · #17 Apr 4, '05, 10:28 am

Personally, while I agree that JP II will be known as John Paul the Great (and I predict that someday he will be named a Doctor of the Church), I will always think of him as "John Paul the Merciful" -- in my opinion he was the finest herald of Divine Mercy and Love the world has seen since Jesus walked the earth Himself. The finest because he taught us true Mercy and Love, solid, life-sustaining, not watered down, not compromising, but TRUE.

+ John Paul the Merciful, ora pro nobis!

+veritas+

**Annunciata** · #18 Apr 4, '05, 11:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercygate

Definitely, "the Great."

Definitely, "Doctor of the Church: the Doctor of Human Dignity." His Theology of the Body and other writings in this area represent some two-thirds of ALL papal writing on marriage. His socio-political vision, based on the dignity of the human person, has already had monumental impact and will continue to be felt.

I agree...very well said.

pprimeau1976 · #19 Apr 4, '05, 11:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefCounsellor

He is already being called John Paul The Great by the Knights of Columbus

http://www.kofc.org/index.cfm

I have seen many Catholic institutions refer to him as "the Great" including EWTN. Maybe this title will be gained not so much by an official decree, but mostly by people's admiration of him. There are precedents for this occurring as many saints in the early church (i.e. St. Patrick, St. Nicholas) were never really canonized. Their sainthood was attributed to them by people's devotion to them.

Maybe the title John Paul the Great will stick afterall.

chevalier · #20 Apr 4, '05, 2:13 pm

They should declare him the patron saint of the world, like they do for countries or continents. How about the patron of Popes?

**mercygate** · #21 Apr 4, '05, 2:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevalier

How about the patron of Popes?

Wouldn't that be Peter?

serendipity · #22 Apr 4, '05, 2:41 pm

I don't think it's an official title, and it seems that many people are already calling him that. That was actually the caption in one of teh Arabic papers (Al Hayat) that accompaniedd the photo with the announcement of his death (John Paul the Great).

And have you seen the t-shirt from Aquinas and more:

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/index..../538/index.htm

It was relased quite a while before the Pope's recent illness.

Catholic Posters carries that one and another one of him too. The latter one does not call him "the Great," and I don't like the fact that they are now adding "mission accomplished" on the back because that contradicts the idea that the communion of saints actively interceded for us in heaven, and that once some one dies, their work for Christianity is done.

Ghosty · #23 Apr 4, '05, 4:41 pm

Quote:

I would love it if JPII became John Paul the Great, but I think that there were so many good popes during the 20th century....St. Pius X, Venerable Pius XII, Blessed John XXIII. I think they deserve this title as well.

The thing is, while they were all wonderful Popes, they didn't necessarily go above and beyond the way John Paul II did. This isn't a slight against them in any way, either, as sometimes it just takes the right set of circumstances and personality traits. He's "the Great" because he was an excellent Pope, but more importantly because he helped shape the world of politics and social interaction in a way that few people, if anyone else, were able to do in the last century. He also reached out personally to more people than anyone in recorded human history. This is without even going into his theological work, which is expansive to say the least. Literally most of the Papal work in history on the sanctity of marriage and sexual relations between married people was done by him alone.

I think the reason he's already being called "the Great" by Catholics and non-Catholics alike is that we simply don't have the language to describe his achievements. We've literally never had a human being do things on this scale before. The only thing we have to fall back on, that even remotely encompasses his work, is "the Great". His work is really too big for our brains to fully comprehend right now.

Quote:

Only two Popes have ever been called "the Great." I don't see what is gained by this kind of hoopla. JPII was a great Pope, for sure. I think his chances of canonization are excellent, and his chances of being named a Doctor of the Church are pretty good. Isn't that enough for you?

I don't think it's a matter of him gaining anything by it, I think it's just a real recognition of popular sentiment. The thing is, no one is really lobbying for the title, which is what is so amazing. It's really just kind of spontaneously arising from all corners of the globe, from all walks of faith and belief. It's unheard of, really. So it's not really a matter of trying to "gain" anything, it's simply a matter of recognizing what has already happened. John Paul II is being called John Paul the Great by everyone; it's like a force of nature, really.

mpav · #24 Apr 4, '05, 7:54 pm

He already is. I wish I was having a child so that I could name a son John Paul.

Semper Fi · #25 Apr 4, '05, 8:02 pm

No doubt he will. I think we should request the mods to change this forum's name to John Paul the Great.

OhioKurt · #26 Apr 5, '05, 3:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Andersen

there are people who feel that way?

Yes, there are, and they aren't necessarily bad people, either. The October 2003 issue of This Rock carried three articles on the 25th anniversary of John Paul II's pontificate that were mildly critical, and suggested that "Great" might be overstating things.

I think our friends at Catholic Answers were just being contrary. Given the impact that this pope has had on the Church and the world, he will go down in history as "Great" and more learned and intelligent men than I have indicated that his Theology of the Body breaks new ground and is likely to become a basis for future Church teaching. Isn't that the kind of contribution typically attributed to a Doctor of the Church?

**pnewton** · #27 Apr 7, '05, 5:34 pm

For those who do not like the name John Paul the Great I have another proposal. How about John Paul the Beloved. When I see the number of heads of state, many who have personally met with him, I think of how warm and dynamic this man was to engender such warmth among all he met.

Teresita · #28 Apr 8, '05, 2:30 am

I worry about the world hype (the word is used non-pejoratively). It's very noticeable that, in all areas of life, the emptier the reality, the greater stress there is on symbolic representation. For instance, here in Britain, there is huge state pomp and ceremony surrounding the Queen: the coronation of the monarch is an enormous event, watched by millions all over the world - but the Queen has no real power at all; she's merely a symbol. In the Middle Ages and the early modern period, where kings and queens had real power, the ceremony was on a much smaller scale.

And what about marriage? Traditionally, when divorce was non-existent, weddings were quick, and not terribly 'ceremonial' (unless you happened to be noble or royal): no special dress (the 'white wedding' was a 19th-century invention), an early arrival at church (hence the 'wedding breakfast' - not an expensive meal!); no honeymoon (another fairly modern invention). These days, when about half of all those who marry will eventually divorce - thus emptying marriage of all meaning - the average British wedding costs about £15,000 - that is, around $28,000. The reality is emptied out in favour of the symbolism, because no one believes in the reality any more.

In religion, it's the same. How many people actually believe (no, I'm not talking about this list!) that baptism truly regenerates? The Baptists, and those groups who believe in adult-only baptism, insist on baptism by immersion, which has much greater symbolic power than what they call 'sprinkling' - but baptism is merely a symbol for them; hence they make much of the outward ceremony. In the Church, historically, baptism (though it could be made into a great ceremony) was a fairly low-key affair; I note with concern (for the reasons I've just given) that more and more churches are installing 'baptism pools', incorporating it into the major Mass of Sunday, and so on. I read about priests who denigrate infant baptism, and wish to delay it until children come to an age when they can make their own choice. The symbolism is empty.

So then - when the world, and many of those, both clergy and laity, have come to reject many of the teachings of the Catholic Church, and to despise those who still hold them (among whom I count the late Holy Father) insofar as they do believe - should one rejoice that the world is now making much of our Pope? During his lifetime, they denigrated whatever he said beyond platitudes (love one another, human rights, etc): when he spoke against contraception, abortion, women priests and so on, he was met with a wall of hostility from both within and without the Church.

The funeral is a great occasion - but how many of the world's leaders who have descended upon Rome will actually take any of the Holy Father's teachings on board? How many of those baptised Catholics who are watching the funeral on television accepted him as Vicarius Christi while he was alive?

Sorry to sound pessimistic - but I think that the Holy Father himself would smile that slightly quirky smile at the thought of all these temporarily reverent people - and then, I guess, he'd pray for them. As I suppose I'd better do!

Sue

jman507 · #29 Apr 8, '05, 3:43 am

It is much easier to be a great saint in the troubled times than it is when all is safe and secure. Unlike many of the ovly pomp weddings of today, John Paul II seemed to be authentic. He seemed to practice what he taught. He was a light in the time in darkness. The other wolrd leaders may or may not take all of his teachings on board, but being at this funeral and all I think can giave a vision of hope, of things that are better. Visions of true humanity. They should atleast be affected by all this going on. In this time of terror, do you think there is any other place where so many people could come together? Amen all I can say in this time, we need a saint that was can call 'The Great' I say thank you God, I think you've given us one that we can hang onto. For he was so Catholic, even the many nonCatholics could agree he was great.

Toni · #30 Apr 8, '05, 5:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercygate

Definitely, "the Great."

Definitely, "Doctor of the Church: the Doctor of Human Dignity." His Theology of the Body and other writings in this area represent some two-thirds of ALL papal writing on marriage. His socio-political vision, based on the dignity of the human person, has already had monumental impact and will continue to be felt.