What if? - what is a good Catholic to do? - Page 2

reggie · #16 Apr 4, '05, 12:59 pm

4 marks

I am sad to hear that you would run so quickly. What would have happened if in the time of Luther, Catholics had run for other faiths. Oh, right, they did and look where that got us.

Here is the way I see it. It may be simplistic and naive but it is what it is.

Either there is a God and the fullness of His truth as He has revealed it to man is to be found in the Catholic church, or there is no God and we are all as deceived as the rest of the world seems to think we are.

The thing is, if you would just run to a different church, how would you know which one is THE ONE? If truth is subjective, there is no truth, only individual perceptions of reality and individual judgements of right and wrong.

God told Moses, "I AM who I AM" not who you think I should be, not who you want me to be, but "I AM". We cannot change who God is, we can only accept or reject Him. It's all the way or no way. And if we choose the way of the Lord, it is not always easy. Our faith must be in the Trinity and not in a man.

So in my mind, it is simple. The church is true, founded by Jesus, unable to teach what is false... or there is no God, no soul, no life after this and all of the materialists and athiests are right.

Follow the logic, look at the mess that the latter have created in our world and you will know the truth.

Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus, I trust in you.

4 marks · #17 Apr 4, '05, 1:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reggie

4 marks

I am sad to hear that you would run so quickly. What would have happened if in the time of Luther, Catholics had run for other faiths. Oh, right, they did and look where that got us.

Here is the way I see it. It may be simplistic and naive but it is what it is.

Either there is a God and the fullness of His truth as He has revealed it to man is to be found in the Catholic church, or there is no God and we are all as deceived as the rest of the world seems to think we are.

The thing is, if you would just run to a different church, how would you know which one is THE ONE? If truth is subjective, there is no truth, only individual perceptions of reality and individual judgements of right and wrong.

God told Moses, "I AM who I AM" not who you think I should be, not who you want me to be, but "I AM". We cannot change who God is, we can only accept or reject Him. It's all the way or no way. And if we choose the way of the Lord, it is not always easy. Our faith must be in the Trinity and not in a man.

So in my mind, it is simple. The church is true, founded by Jesus, unable to teach what is false... or there is no God, no soul, no life after this and all of the materialists and athiests are right.

Follow the logic, look at the mess that the latter have created in our world and you will know the truth.

Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus, I trust in you.

If a Pope spoke ex-cathedra on such things and such things were to become acceptable practice in the Church, I could not bear to remain in the Church. I follow Christ NOT the Church which will have been proven to me to have been a mere human institution.

Since the Eastern Orthodox remain in apostolic tradition and would not go along with such nonsense, I would likely flee there. Otherwise, yes, I would dump religion and faith altogether and live out the rest of my life without it.

Sparky · #18 Apr 4, '05, 1:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by huskerfan

The Pope will not rise again and that needs to be made clear for those having those type of ideas.

Actually he will - on the last day when Christ returns, as will all who died in Christ. That is the promise of Christ's resurrection.

Just thought I'd point that out. Maybe our friend misinterpreted what the other poster said?
--Ann

huskerfan · #19 Apr 4, '05, 1:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky

Actually he will - on the last day when Christ returns, as will all who died in Christ. That is the promise of Christ's resurrection.

Just thought I'd point that out. Maybe our friend misinterpreted what the other poster said?
--Ann

OK...you got me on that one. I was thinking in terms of how Jesus rose.

Richardols · #20 Apr 4, '05, 1:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Waddell

I don't discern any such tone.

Okay, you don't.

Quote:

Ok, you found a screwball on the net. What else is new?

Not on the net; on this Forum.

Quote:

And what does it have to do with authentic Catholic teaching?

Nothing, but the subject wasn't authentic Catholic teaching.

Quote:

I would need to see what they are saying in these venerations before deeming them inappropriate.

Good. Best is always to verify things for oneself.

Michael C · #21 Apr 4, '05, 1:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 marks

On radio talk shows here in Massachusetts, the majority of "Catholic" callers want the Church to acceptwomen priests, artificial birth control, divorce and re-marriage, embryonic stem cell research, capital punishment, euthanasia of persons judicially declared in a "persistent vegitative state" and support of "abortion rights." In other words, they want to be Episcopalians with a Pope as the head of their church.

Sad really.

If that ever happened there would be no need for me to watch EWTN. I could just watch poloticians argue on the senate floor. What would be the difference between the government and Church. I don't love the way things are in this country so much to wish for that.

Scott Waddell · #22 Apr 4, '05, 1:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardols

Not on the net; on this Forum.

Ok, a nut on this forum. What else is new?

Quote:

Nothing, but the subject wasn't authentic Catholic teaching.

The implication is that one person looking for the resurrection of JPII is somehow a commonly held expectation of many on this forum. That a few oddballs set the tone you somehow manage to see here.

Scott

reggie · #23 Apr 4, '05, 2:02 pm

Do you know the result of what you have just said? It all comes back to Jesus, always. We follow not the church, but Jesus whose graces comes to us through the church. If He is in fact who and what He claimed to be, then there is a church that He founded and will not let flounder or err. As Catholics we believe that we are members of that church. As Catholics we believe that outside the church there is error, that it is only in the Catholic church that the fullness of truth is to be found.

My point is uncompromising in its basic tenet. There is either Truth and the Catholic church has it, or there is no truth. God exists or He doesn't. There is no in between. What I am trying to say, apparrantly badly, is that God is Truth, if He doesn't exist, then there is no truth. You say that you would try to draw as many souls away from the CC as you could. I ask, why? If what we believe is not the truth, then it did not come from God, it came from man and that makes the Bible a nice story, but not the truth.
It would then have to follow that there is no soul to worry about and no eternal life.

I believe that abortion, contraception, euthanasia and gay marriage is wrong. Why, because I believe the Catholic church and what she teaches is the Truth. If that is wrong, then everything the church has taught is wrong and there is no God, no Jesus, no Holy Spirit and these things are not sinful because there is no God to sin against. I could look to another religion, a protestant Christian church, but what would be the point? They also claim to be the truth, but if it is ever shifting with the winds, then it isn't truth but opinion.

So, I follow Christ, I believe Christ, I trust Christ but through the teachings of the church handed on to me through the Bible, Tradition and the Magisterium. For me its all or nothing. If I am not Catholic, I am nothing.

javier_29 · #24 Apr 4, '05, 2:03 pm

Quote:

If a Pope spoke ex-cathedra on such things and such things were to become acceptable practice in the Church, I could not bear to remain in the Church. I follow Christ NOT the Church which will have been proven to me to have been a mere human institution.

Mat 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the hell shall not prevail against it.

The Pope will not teach heresy because that would mean that the gates of hell would prevail and Jesus told us that wouldn't happen.

Trust in Jesus

Javier

Jermosh · #25 Apr 4, '05, 2:49 pm

So you do not believe that the pope speaks for thruth? This is perplexing point.

**Ani Ibi** · #26 Apr 4, '05, 3:00 pm

I think what reassures me is this axiom: God does not chose the qualified but qualifies the chosen.

I guess we speculate because we are started to be excited about having a new Pope. No disrespect for our JPII. But, with all the looking at curriculum vitae and expert specs, we still do not know the cardinals in person. I think a lot depends on what they are like in person.

I am hoping for someone young and healthy enough to last a long time, someone who is strong enough to hold the line on moral teaching, and someone who is personable enough to love us abundantly.

chicago · #27 Apr 4, '05, 3:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaGeek

Someone on another (secular) message board asked me, "If the new pope is a little liberal on matter such as birth control and accepting gays, will you still follow the Pope?"

What is a good Catholic to do? I know this will not happen, and if it does, it is a false pope. How are we to discern this? What if we get a pope who keeps the core doctrine, and doesn't declare any changes in doctrine, but personally teaches these things? There have been historical popes who did this sort of thing, even teaching heresy, but never declaring it doctrine, thus never violating the infallibility of the office. What should a good Catholic do?

I would respond, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it!"

BLB_Oregon · #28 Apr 4, '05, 6:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicago

I would respond, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it!"

Yes. Whatever Holy Father the Holy Spirit permits, I will cope with. Christ will never leave us, nor leave us orphaned.

What if the faithful had all packed up and left during the dark days of the past that saw all of those awful popes, those who fathered children, who committed nepotism and all the rest? Likewise, how many of us have left because we thought the Church was in error, only to realize later that we misunderstood and it was we who sojourned in error?

The Reformation became a mass exodus instead of a true reform of the Church because so many of the faithful thought leaving was an answer. How many Christians later murdered each other on that account! Even Martin Luther regretted what he had set off, later in his life. The Church has had dark times, and God may permit her to have more. History teaches that leaving is not the answer.

If such a thing happens, I won't remain silent, but neither will I leave. I know where I have been called, and here I stay.

Steve Andersen · #29 Apr 4, '05, 6:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaGeek

......What is a good Catholic to do? ......

Well you probably know someone who may have had difficulties accepting one papal decision or another over the past 26 years

Just do what you told them to do

surfinpure · #30 Apr 4, '05, 8:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 marks

If the Pope were to state this "ex cathedra" I would leave with running shoes on. I would hope that others here would as well.
Not only that, but I would make it my life's dedication to draw Catholics away from the Church and lead them to Christ. I would make every effort to oppose Roman Catholicism in every way possible.

Let's say that a pope decreed that gay marriage is acceptable, that women should be ordained, that it was right and good to starve Terri Schiavo to death. You can't possibly tell me that you could, in good conscience, remain Roman Catholic after that?!!!

If all of these things were to happen, it would mean that the Pope were an anti-pope -- that he himself has departed from the Church. Christ will protect His Church. If we do not believe this, why do we call ourselves Catholics? If the new Pope were to depart from the teachings of the Church, I would still cling to Her for dear life. There can be no separation from Christ's true Church if we wish to have communion with Him.