Which of the following poses the greatest threat to Church integrity

[Gordon N]

Where is the option for "all of the above"? I chose other because they are all threats against the Church. Is any one worse than the other? Open for debate. Are they all roads to hell? Yes.

Will any (or all) of them lead to the downfall of the true Church that Jesus Christ established?

NO!

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

Jesus tells us that NOTHING will prevail against His Church (that's us, by the way). He did not say that we will not be challenged. As a matter of fact, He did state:

"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first." -and- "Remember the word I spoke to you, 'No slave is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours."

Jesus so loves us that He gave us His Church. Although there is much in the way of immorality in our world (and nation) today, the devil will not prevail against Him or His Church. We will be persecuted. We may be martyred. We are expected to make sacrifices as He did, but the evil in the world will not prevail against us if we keep faith with Him. Believe in Jesus. Stay the path. Keep the faith. Seek God's forgiveness (often!) and continue to bring Jesus in your lives (Holy Communion and prayer). Salvation and eternity with our Lord is the goal. All of these evil issues are the devil's way of distracting us from Him.

Peace

Gordon

P.S.- Remember that we need to protect the innocents along our way! We do need to fight the powers that are corrupting our Church, so never give up the fight of the righteous!

[Gordon N]

Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita

I have pondered for some time starting a CA "peace club"... "Punishment" for offenses is to confess on the delegated thread when you have gotten hostile or felt angry toward a brother, and maybe ask for suggestions on how to handle such situations better.

Alan-
If you do start this thread, please let me know - I could use some training like that!

Peace

Gordon

[iserve]

Uneducated Catholics leads to all l the other problems because ignorance of the Word of God allows them to believe many lies that are in circulation. Even the issue of HORRIBLE leadership can only be curtailed by an intelligent, scripture-savy congregation, since many of these bishops are far too spineless to make such dreadful choices if they know that they would be riduculed by the flock. As it is, they get away with their shennanigans due to a total lack of accountability to the magesterium and the Pope on one end, and passivity and ignorance on the part of the laity. Who, then, keeps them in check?
Speaking from experience, I know of only one thing that works like a snake charmer: Zip up the old wallet and let those mediocrities ante up (they don't). The truly faithful can then take back their Church because, money talks and BS walks. . . . .

[stbruno]

Catholic schools which up until recently were the proponent of catechesis, and they are closing everywhere for lack of funding & the ability to maintain enrollment due to the rising costs of operating them. Therefore, catechesis must then reside in the religious education programs, which have sadly been lacking of educated catechists. Catholicism will never die because of the promise of Jesus to be with us until the end of time. But we have to do some very serious educating of those who are catechists to the true doctrines of the church. Too many have not had the proper education to dispense the real education. And then we have to make the link between learning it and then living it on a daily basis. Too many people think that being Catholic means going only to mass. And that's only 1/2 of 1% of what being Catholic means. It can all be done, if we all pitch in. The load will be less and the work will be lighter, and we all will become one in the Lord. What a beautiful thought!

[Vox Borealis]

I picked undereducated laity and loss to evangelical churches, which are related (at least to a degree). First of all, I am not as worried about the other choices. For example, the ratio of priests to laity is not, in my mind, a FUNDAMENTAL problem--we may simply have to come to grips with a reality that there will be larger congregations and that the priest will have to delegate some pastoral duties. But as long as the laity still recognizes the importance of the priest, we are ok.

Likewise, I am not concerned as some in this forum are about the ordination of women. The church has taken a pretty consistent stand on this issue, and I don't see any change soon. Also (and here I will get in trouble) I am not fundamentally bothered by ordained women so long as this change is worked out without contradicting doctrine. Now, many of you will say that is impossible, and I tend to agree. But the Holy Spirit moves mysteriously, and church leaders tend to be much smarter theologians than me. In any case, I just don't see this as a pressing issue.

However, the undereducation of the laity is fundamental and leads to other, subsidiary problems. And, as another poster has noted, the number of Catholics who attend Catholic school is dropping. That means catholic education must be done eleswhere, either at the family level or the parish level--but adequate structures are not currently in place to do this.

Related to the issue of education is the drift of Catholics to evangelica churches. Now, on the one hand, if Catholics were better educated perhaps some would remain in the Church. But I think the problem is deeper. Evangelical churches are very tempting--the means of salvation is simple and attractive (just accept Jesus), the "theology" is simple and caters to pervasive anti-intellectualism, the leaders are often dynamic and charismatic, and finally, in my opinion evangelics don't "play by the rules." Evangelicals work with Catholics on specific political/social issues, but then trun around and actively try to recruit Catholics to their churches. Evangelicals specifically target the Church in Latin America. Meanwhile the Catholic church and other liturgical protestant churches have more or less agreed not to actively evangelize (target) each others adherents for conversion. Look at how much heat the Pope took for establishing a diocese in Russia to better serve Catholics who were already there!

[Chris Jacobsen]

I voted for other. The most important thing is that a diocese be headed by a good and competent bishop.

A good and competent bishop will make sure the people of the diocese know the basics of the Faith. And when people know what the Catholic Church believes and why the Catholic Church believes it, the other problems listed will begin to be solved.

Without a good bishop leading the diocese, Catholics in the diocese are like sheep without a shepherd.

[Joe Kelley]

Chris - Amen!

[Trelow]

abysmal catechesis

That is the root of every problem listed.

[BarbaraTherese]

.........I'm glad you put 'other' in your poll.

The Church is the Communion of Saints on earth.......we are a monarchy under Jesus Christ Our King.........who guarantees that he will never abandon us, nor will the gates of Hell win out against us.

The greatest threat to the integrity of The Communion of Saints on Earth is disobedience to rightful authority.............a kingdom divided cannot stand!.............yet The Lord has promised us that the gates of Hell will not win..........which implies that we are deadlocked in a battle with evil itself. And it aint no he ........it is an it!

This does not mean that we do not express our opinons even if we disagree with heirarchy etc. It also asks that our heirarchy recognize that a strong movement amongst The Faithful may well be a movement of The Holy Spirit.......hence they have the obligation to listen to The Faithful in their decisions etc. What is taking place in The Church today is a power struggle on varying levels. Power does tend to corrupt, especailly the desire for it or shock, horror, to lust after it.

The word 'dialogue' was coined by the USA during the Vietnam War and associated leadership conferences.........it is not another word for 'communication'.........The USA coined a specific meaning for the word 'dialogue ' since I am on I think an American Discussion Board, I daresay most are familiar with the meaning of the word 'dialogue'; hecne I shall not repeat the definition.

What will tear apart The Church will be division within The Church.............obvious what is happening today!

The Church also states that the highest court is a person's conscience.

I think we need to go down on our knees and pray!

No the gates of Hell will not prevail ........but the lessons of history unlearnt..........do indeed repeat.

One of the things that Jesus could not tolerate was the multiplication of rules putting burdens on the people that authority did not have to carry.........another of his gripes was authority collecting a measure of wealth at the expense of the people who could not a afford it. We do well to recall that Jesus completly lost his cool in the temple and became violent.......perhaps we need to be aware that perhaps he is about to loose his cool again .......perhaps.......possibly.......perc hance!
We are about loving and caring for each other and for our neighbour which is every single person on the face of this earth. We also have as human beings a responsibility to care and cherish the gift God has given us in creation........the material world as well as other factors including the fact that "work out your own salvation IN FEAR AND TREMBLING!!!..........we are responsible and accpountable before God for what we say, think and do AT ALL TIMES ........... read The Cure of Ars writings on The Last Judgement.........but there is no obligation to believe what he wrote..........perhaps wise to do so.......but no obligation.
The Cure of Ars is the patron saints of Priests which includes our heirarchy and Pope all of whom are Priests.

Regards, Barb, Bethany Place
South Australia
Sun. 17.4.05 0428hrs.

[johnq]

ME

It's Me!

[patrickmichael]

Originally Posted by johnq

ME

It's Me!

Exactly.

The only threat to church integrity is sin. My sins. Your sins. These are what destroy the church, because they destroy its members. The only cure for what ails the Church, the world, and all its inhabitants is for you and me personally to live out the call to perfection.

[Trelow]

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese

.........I'm glad you put 'other' in your poll.

The Church is the Communion of Saints on earth.......we are a monarchy under Jesus Christ Our King.........who guarantees that he will never abandon us, nor will the gates of Hell win out against us.

The greatest threat to the integrity of The Communion of Saints on Earth is disobedience to rightful authority.............a kingdom divided cannot stand!.............yet The Lord has promised us that the gates of Hell will not win..........which implies that we are deadlocked in a battle with evil itself. And it aint no he ........it is an it!

This does not mean that we do not express our opinons even if we disagree with heirarchy etc. It also asks that our heirarchy recognize that a strong movement amongst The Faithful may well be a movement of The Holy Spirit.......hence they have the obligation to listen to The Faithful in their decisions etc. What is taking place in The Church today is a power struggle on varying levels. Power does tend to corrupt, especailly the desire for it or shock, horror, to lust after it.

The word 'dialogue' was coined by the USA during the Vietnam War and associated leadership conferences.........it is not another word for 'communication'.........The USA coined a specific meaning for the word 'dialogue ' since I am on I think an American Discussion Board, I daresay most are familiar with the meaning of the word 'dialogue'; hecne I shall not repeat the definition.

What will tear apart The Church will be division within The Church.............obvious what is happening today!

The Church also states that the highest court is a person's conscience.

I think we need to go down on our knees and pray!

No the gates of Hell will not prevail ........but the lessons of history unlearnt..........do indeed repeat.

One of the things that Jesus could not tolerate was the multiplication of rules putting burdens on the people that authority did not have to carry.........another of his gripes was authority collecting a measure of wealth at the expense of the people who could not a afford it. We do well to recall that Jesus completly lost his cool in the temple and became violent.......perhaps we need to be aware that perhaps he is about to loose his cool again .......perhaps.......possibly.......perc hance!
We are about loving and caring for each other and for our neighbour which is every single person on the face of this earth. We also have as human beings a responsibility to care and cherish the gift God has given us in creation........the material world as well as other factors including the fact that "work out your own salvation IN FEAR AND TREMBLING!!!..........we are responsible and accpountable before God for what we say, think and do AT ALL TIMES ........... read The Cure of Ars writings on The Last Judgement.........but there is no obligation to believe what he wrote..........perhaps wise to do so.......but no obligation.
The Cure of Ars is the patron saints of Priests which includes our heirarchy and Pope all of whom are Priests.

Regards, Barb, Bethany Place
South Australia
Sun. 17.4.05 0428hrs.

I'd say to you, tread lightly. From both the text and context of you post it appears that you are falling into dissent, if not there already.

[BarbaraTherese]

Originally Posted by Trelow

I'd say to you, tread lightly. From both the text and context of you post it appears that you are falling into dissent, if not there already.

Hi there Trelow - I don't think we have met before on The Board, so pleased to meecha!

If you wish me to respond to your assertion that I am falling into 'dissent' (and by that I am taking it you mean 'disagreement') I need you to be more specific, for I fail to see your point....nor can I agree that I am indeed even close to dissent ..... and by dissent I am taking it for granted that you mean dissent from Rome and lawful authority of The Church speaking on either Faith or Morals.
If you would be more specific, I would be pleased to respond to your post. I am not being 'funny'..........I really cannot see where my original post, which you quoted in full, is falling or fallen into dissent or even close to it.

Look forward to hearing from you, Trelow
Regards
Barb.........Bethany..........Sth. Aust.
Mon. 18.4.05.............10.36pm

[Trelow]

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese

Hi there Trelow - I don't think we have met before on The Board, so pleased to meecha!

If you wish me to respond to your assertion that I am falling into 'dissent' (and by that I am taking it you mean 'disagreement') I need you to be more specific, for I fail to see your point....nor can I agree that I am indeed even close to dissent ..... and by dissent I am taking it for granted that you mean dissent from Rome and lawful authority of The Church speaking on either Faith or Morals.
If you would be more specific, I would be pleased to respond to your post. I am not being 'funny'..........I really cannot see where my original post, which you quoted in full, is falling or fallen into dissent or even close to it.

Look forward to hearing from you, Trelow
Regards
Barb.........Bethany..........Sth. Aust.
Mon. 18.4.05.............10.36pm

These phrases strike as questionable.

This does not mean that we do not express our opinons even if we disagree with heirarchy etc. It also asks that our heirarchy recognize that a strong movement amongst The Faithful may well be a movement of The Holy Spirit.......hence they have the obligation to listen to The Faithful in their decisions etc. What is taking place in The Church today is a power struggle on varying levels. Power does tend to corrupt, especailly the desire for it or shock, horror, to lust after it.

One of the things that Jesus could not tolerate was the multiplication of rules putting burdens on the people that authority did not have to carry.........another of his gripes was authority collecting a measure of wealth at the expense of the people who could not a afford it.

I appears that you are beginning to question the authority of the Church. Although your other phrases speak truthfully, the devil doesn't run around in a red suit with a pitchfork. I see this like of reasoning akin to that of VOTF and other dissenters. Again I suggest, tread lightly.


Pleased to meet you! I only want God's will to be done, doing my pat to bring to attention where you may be failing. Not trying to attack you. God bless.

[Daisy Duck]

The church's perceived indifference to abuse of children by the clergy.