Why the "liberal", "conservative" labels for next Pope speculation?

[felra]

As Catholics, why do so many discuss Pope candidates and Church dogma/teaching in terms of conservative versus liberal spectrum, when these are largely political and policy making terms? How about a more proper assessment of orthodox versus unorthodox? This would help to frame the subsequent discussions of assent, dissent with the uninformed. After all, the Church is founded on Jesus Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, working through imperfect institutions and personages, not a democracy ...

[Ghosty]

I think that, on the heterodox side, using such terms pretty much end the discussion and "out" their arguments as absolutely against the Church. It's much easier for them to sugar-coat their beliefs by calling them "liberal", and complaining about the Pope being too "conservative". Unfortunately the orthodox side has picked up on this labeling too, and really it doesn't benefit us to use it at all. If we just call the "liberal" ideas what they are, namely heterodox, then we've destroyed the very foundation for their arguments.

It's also important for those of us who are orthodox to remember that, socially speaking, orthodox Catholic teaching is very much liberal in the sense of respect for individuality, as John Paul II has demonstrated. We must clearly demonstrate that there is a HUGE difference between liberality, and licentiousness.

[Jermosh]

I know what you mean. Some hardliners think that you cannot be liberal and orthodox at the same time. Tell that to St Paul, or St Peter. To be liberal is to want change or be open to it. The Church has changed in many ways on somethings and has not even budged on other things. It works out for the best in the end though.

[Richardols]

Originally Posted by Jermosh

I know what you mean. Some hardliners think that you cannot be liberal and orthodox at the same time.

I can second that. In discussions on the Forum, numerous posters refuse to acknowledge that I can be both theologically orthodox and politically liberal.

They believe that orthodoxy must be matched with a devotion to reactionary Republicanism if one is to be considered a Catholic.

[Franze]

Originally Posted by Richardols

I can second that. In discussions on the Forum, numerous posters refuse to acknowledge that I can be both theologically orthodox and politically liberal.

They believe that orthodoxy must be matched with a devotion to reactionary Republicanism if one is to be considered a Catholic.

Richardols, nevertheless, people like you are very important, because religion is more than politics and don´t have to depend for it, but many times happened, because the left in my country and the democratic party is sometimes very anti-orthodox

[Thekla]

Everything is made political and people fall for this false set up. It wasn't 24 hours before they began instigating and LOOKING for controversy. The death of John Paul II should be a time for Catholics to come together in rememberance and prayer for a most wonderful pope.

[Ani Ibi]

Originally Posted by Franze

Richardols, nevertheless, people like you are very important, because religion is more than politics and don´t have to depend for it, but many times happened, because the left in my country and the democratic party is sometimes very anti-orthodox

Franze, please tell us about being Catholic in Spain. It has been a very long time since I lived there (Madrid). And much, I gather, has changed since Franco. The Vatican, I believe, is expecting a very large contingent of pilgrims from Poland but also Spain.

[Steph700]

Originally Posted by Richardols

I can second that. In discussions on the Forum, numerous posters refuse to acknowledge that I can be both theologically orthodox and politically liberal.

They believe that orthodoxy must be matched with a devotion to reactionary Republicanism if one is to be considered a Catholic.

Absolutely. Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the Catholic Answers site or the Fundamentalist Answers site... it's so important for some people to automatically associate orthodoxy with being republican! I know i used to do the same thing, but at least I was an evangelical protestant then... I had NO idea there were Catholics who acted so much like fundamentalists! Twilight zone.

[Fiat]

Frankly, I think it's absurd to pigeonhole Christ's message as preserved to us by Holy Mother Church as a purely "conservative" or a purely "liberal" message. Christ's message fits neatly into NEITHER of those packages. Therefore, I am amazed how some Catholics can cling so tightly to their Democratic- or Republican-party identities!

[Richardols]

Originally Posted by Steph700

it's so important for some people to automatically associate orthodoxy with being republican!

On another thread, a poster who uses the handle "jim orr" asked how I could affiliate with a party "diabolically opposed to what you profess to believe and pray for." {emphasis added}

One can't simply write him off as a single whacko extremist. He represents many who, as you say, automatically associate orthodoxy with Republicanism and any sort of liberalism with Satan.

[Richardols]

Originally Posted by Fiat

Frankly, I think it's absurd to pigeonhole Christ's message as preserved to us by Holy Mother Church as a purely "conservative" or a purely "liberal" message. Christ's message fits neatly into NEITHER of those packages. Therefore, I am amazed how some Catholics can cling so tightly to their Democratic- or Republican-party identities!

Hear! Hear!

[Digitonomy]

Originally Posted by felra

As Catholics, why do so many discuss Pope candidates and Church dogma/teaching in terms of conservative versus liberal spectrum, when these are largely political and policy making terms? How about a more proper assessment of orthodox versus unorthodox?

I think it's safe to assume that all the viable papabile are orthodox. It would truly be an insult to suggest that Arinze, or Tettamanzi, or Ratzinger, are heterodox. But they're obviously not the same. The best shorthand to describe their differences is in terms of conservative and liberal - even though the differences are much more complex than can be described with a one-dimensional spectrum.

[BillyT92679]

Originally Posted by Steph700

Absolutely. Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the Catholic Answers site or the Fundamentalist Answers site... it's so important for some people to automatically associate orthodoxy with being republican! I know i used to do the same thing, but at least I was an evangelical protestant then... I had NO idea there were Catholics who acted so much like fundamentalists! Twilight zone.

Well orthodoxy certainly is not associated with being a liberal Democrat either... neither political party truly matches up with Catholicism... the closest thing in the world would be the Christian Democrats of Europe. The Republican Party is somewhat closer to Catholicism than the Democrats though. American liberalism is incompatible with Catholic doctrine... but Libertarianism is completely opposed to it.

[felra]

Originally Posted by Richardols

On another thread, a poster who uses the handle "jim orr" asked how I could affiliate with a party "diabolically opposed to what you profess to believe and pray for." {emphasis added}

One can't simply write him off as a single whacko extremist. He represents many who, as you say, automatically associate orthodoxy with Republicanism and any sort of liberalism with Satan.

To respond to your concern, I think that this quote by Fr. Frank Pavone at a pro-life banquet on 11/14/04 sums it up well, that loyalty to God transcends any loyalty to a political party (conservative/liberal political labels):

"I am not ashamed to appear to be opposed to a party that says it is okay to crush the heads of babies. Something is very wrong when one's loyalty to a political party is greater than one's loyalty to God and fundamental human rights. We have a message that goes far beyond any political party--we have a message that is eternal and reaches from one end of the universe to the other: That every human life is a manifestation of the glory of God, and that an attack on any human life is an attack on God Himself."

[Lisa N]

Originally Posted by Richardols

On another thread, a poster who uses the handle "jim orr" asked how I could affiliate with a party "diabolically opposed to what you profess to believe and pray for." {emphasis added}

One can't simply write him off as a single whacko extremist. He represents many who, as you say, automatically associate orthodoxy with Republicanism and any sort of liberalism with Satan.

Richardols your political leanings are extremely obvious as well. I just wonder how you can embrace a party that supports abortion as a platform. I realize that there are prolife Democrats and proabort Republicans. OTOH the support of abortion is so fundamental to the Dem party and is a total deal killer for someone like me.

Liberal causes of late have promoted the cliched but certainly appropriate phrase 'culture of death.' If there was anything Pope John Paul II championed, it was respect for human life.

I grew up a liberal Democrat but see absolutely no short term hope that this party will embrace a fundamental respect for life. I hope the next Pope will, like John Paul II, never back down from defending life.

Lisa N