Go Back   Catholic Answers Groups > Group Forums > Matthew's Gospel Study Group
 

Matthew's Gospel Study Group Click here to visit this social group

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Jul 27, '10, 11:46 am
smithm29 smithm29 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2010
Posts: 345
Religion: Catholic
Default Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

This excerpt is from Sacra Pagina:
Quote:
The inclusion of five women in Jesus' genealogy (see 1:3,5,6,16) breaks the formal pattern set in the Book of Ruth and elsewhere ("A was the father of B"). This unusual departure from both the form and the content of biblical genealogies was surely purposeful. But what was the purpose? Tamar (see Genesis 38) disguised herself as a harlot and conceived sons by her father-in-law, Judah. Rahab (see Joshua 2;6) was the harlot of Jericho whose life was spared because she aided Joshua's spies. Ruth was a Moabite woman who joined herself to Israel through her husband's family. Bathsheba, referred to here simply as the "wife of Uriah," became David's wife when he arranged for Uriah's death in battle (see 2 Samuel 11-12). Mary, the mother of Jesus, was drawn into David's line through her husband Joseph, through her child Jesus was the legal, rather than physical son of Joseph (as the next passage makes clear).

Efforts to find a factor common to all four OT women at the level of the biblical text or the Jewish tradition are not entirely successful. Rahab and Ruth were Gentiles, and "the wife of Uriah" may also have been a Gentile. But this does not seem to be the case for Tamar. It may be possible to accuse Tamar, Rahab, and Bathsheba of sexual misconduct. But matters are not so clear in the case of Ruth. It seems best to leave the idea expressed by the inclusion of the four women at the level of "irregularity" or "departure from the ordinary". In their own distinctive ways they prepare for and foreshadow the irregular birth of Jesus that will be described in Matt 1:18-25. In the context of the formal pattern set by the genealogy ("A was the father of B") and the threefold series of fourteen generations, the four women set up the reader to expect the unexpected. At the beginning of the Gospel they function as part of a theme that runs through the entire text: the tension between tradition and newness.
I'm on lunch right now, so I don't have time to write a lot, but this really struck me and I wanted to share it before I forgot. I had never really given any thought to the genealogies- either here, in Luke, or int he OT. They're terribly boring and hard for me to read, so I suppose it's no surprise that I never caught a pattern or realized that Matthew was breaking it. I like the conclusion here a lot- the tension between tradition and newness.

It echoes the idea that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. He expands our understanding of it, without taking it away- but it certainly might seem that he disregards it altogether. Looking at it like that, it might also be Matthew's way of calling to attention the importance of "unimportant" people, and the idea that anyone can serve as part o God's plan.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Jul 30, '10, 6:53 am
odhiambo's Avatar
odhiambo odhiambo is offline
Veteran Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: June 7, 2010
Posts: 21,130
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

The presence of these five women in the genealogy of Jesus is not accidental. It is by God's design.
The Jewish people, like many other nations, mine included, did not allow women to pass their bloodline on to their children. Women were regarded as " inferior" ; of no consequence as far as inheritance was concerned. The bloodline was from father to son to grandson etc.
And yet, here we have these five women in Jesus' s ancestry.
Four of these women , namely Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba are all gentiles; and at first glance at least three of them are of questionable morals.
Rahab played a role in the fall of Jericho. Although she was labelled a ' harlot ' she is said to have had faith in the God of the invading Israelites and colluded with them to defeat her own Country.
It seems that the inclusion of foreign, women who were sinners is meant to teach us that discrimination in any form be it on gender, racial or moral ground is wrong; that salvation is for sinners. Jesus came to this world to save us sinners.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Jul 30, '10, 7:10 am
odhiambo's Avatar
odhiambo odhiambo is offline
Veteran Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: June 7, 2010
Posts: 21,130
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

Hi all!
Can someone enlighten me?
Is there any significance in the 3-tier 14 generations?
Why did he have to' structure' it to be exactly 14 generations between major landmark occurrences to the extent of preventing it
from being a true historical record ?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Jul 30, '10, 7:40 am
Deb H Deb H is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2010
Posts: 97
Religion: Catholic (convert)
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by odhiambo View Post
Hi all!
Can someone enlighten me?
Is there any significance in the 3-tier 14 generations?
Why did he have to' structure' it to be exactly 14 generations between major landmark occurrences to the extent of preventing it
from being a true historical record ?
It is my understanding that it was common for the time , not to record every single generation . And I have been taught that recording every single generation was not the purpose of this genealogy either .
Some scolars believe that Matthew used 14 generations in each illustration because of the jewish tradition at the time of using numerology (called gematria ) . In Hebrew David added together according to gematria is 14 . Hope that helps ! happy Friday to you
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Jul 30, '10, 7:51 am
odhiambo's Avatar
odhiambo odhiambo is offline
Veteran Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: June 7, 2010
Posts: 21,130
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb H View Post
It is my understanding that it was common for the time , not to record every single generation . And I have been taught that recording every single generation was not the purpose of this genealogy either .
Some scolars believe that Matthew used 14 generations in each illustration because of the jewish tradition at the time of using numerology (called gematria ) . In Hebrew David added together according to gematria is 14 . Hope that helps ! happy Friday to you
Yes it does help and thanks.
God bless!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Jul 31, '10, 12:36 pm
rcjones rcjones is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2008
Posts: 651
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

Each of the women have a history that paints a detailed picture of Christ in the riddle of sensus plenior:

Here is a brief overview of Tamar:

The name Timnath means "appointment" and Tamar met Judah before Timanth. It is appointed unto man, once to die, and Mary met God before Christ's appointed time.

Tamar was promised a goat, Mary was promised a scape goat, "for he will save his people from their sin."

Both Tamar and Mary wanted an assurance of the promise.

Tamar was given the rod, and Mary was told "The power of God..." Tamar was given a signet ring, and Mary was told "He will be called the Son ..." In Numbers we find out that an empty vessel without bracelets is unclean. Tamar was given bracelets (was clean) and Mary was told "The Holy Ghost will come upon you (not unclean)

When they were discovered to be pregnant both were threatened. When the father was discovered, they both were honored.

Judah was told "There was no prostitute here" Joseph was told not to be afraid to take Mary.

Tamar had twins… Mary had the God-man.

The names of the twins means "Breaking forth" "rising sun" and Jesus was called "Dayspring"

Pharez was a usurping second son (in a long line) and Jesus was the second man who obtained the promise. (Adam being the first man, and he did not obtain the promise).

The other women also have detailed pictures hidden in the narratives.
__________________
Wonder why the world seems so bad?
WORLD - WORD = L
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Jul 31, '10, 2:41 pm
NotWorthy's Avatar
NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: May 10, 2005
Posts: 13,932
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

What interesting about the 4 women is that any one of them could preclude Jesus being the rightful heir. The problem with this potential protest is that it is nullified in King David and Solomon, whom Jewishness nobody can question. King David was probably the ultimate Jew (or would Israelite be the better term). So, to deny Jesus' lineage is to deny King David's.

That's one of the reasons you won't find any women in the lineage after David until Mary and Joseph.
__________________
Follow your Dreams! Except for the ones where you're naked in Church!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Aug 1, '10, 8:42 am
odhiambo's Avatar
odhiambo odhiambo is offline
Veteran Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: June 7, 2010
Posts: 21,130
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

The more I read the excerpts from the Sacred Pages that smithm29 posted at the biginning of this side discussion, the more I completely agree with the explanation for the inclusion of the four women in the genealogy of Jesus. It just ' fits like a glove', and that tension between tradition and newness, we will look for more of it as we progress with our study.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Aug 1, '10, 11:11 am
NotWorthy's Avatar
NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: May 10, 2005
Posts: 13,932
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by odhiambo View Post
The more I read the excerpts from the Sacred Pages that smithm29 posted at the biginning of this side discussion, the more I completely agree with the explanation for the inclusion of the four women in the genealogy of Jesus. It just ' fits like a glove', and that tension between tradition and newness, we will look for more of it as we progress with our study.
I often listen to David Higbee talk from St. Ireneaus Ministries (on MP3 files) and he refers to this phenomenon as "passing the 'smell' test". I always laugh at that reference for it makes perfect sense.
__________________
Follow your Dreams! Except for the ones where you're naked in Church!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Aug 11, '10, 7:45 am
pippin's Avatar
pippin pippin is offline
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 390
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

The only thing the three OT women had in common is that none of them came to the man in the lineage as virgins. Three were widows and one was a harlot.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Aug 11, '10, 11:30 am
NotWorthy's Avatar
NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: May 10, 2005
Posts: 13,932
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by pippin View Post
The only thing the three OT women had in common is that none of them came to the man in the lineage as virgins. Three were widows and one was a harlot.
To me these women give me hope. If God can create good out of some of the acts these women (and of course, their consorts) did, then He can certainly can do some good with me!
__________________
Follow your Dreams! Except for the ones where you're naked in Church!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Sep 15, '10, 5:44 pm
rcjones rcjones is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2008
Posts: 651
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Side Discussion- The Women in the Genealogy

In the sensus plenior:

5 is the number of man
10 is the number of the dual natured man Christ Jesus. It also sometimes represents the church when it has become 'like him'.

Female represents not seeing clearly. It has nothing to do with gender. It is because the woman was deceived. So a female donkey represents a prophet that doesn't see clearly.


A female 5 represents the bride who is not yet dual natured and does not see clearly.

Hence it is 'code' for that while we were yet sinners Christ died for or 'married' us. Since there is no marriage in heaven, the marriage of the Lamb took place at the cross.
__________________
Wonder why the world seems so bad?
WORLD - WORD = L
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Group Forums > Matthew's Gospel Study Group

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




   

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:19 pm.

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.