Wedding at Cana

[rwillenborg]

All right folks, I need a play by play on this one:

And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Why is the list of invitees listed like this? Was it that Mary was invited, and Jesus came too, though he wasn't directly invited? Was it normal for someone's disciples to come to a wedding their mother was invited to?

3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

Did Mary say this to him with the understanding that he might do something about it, or was she just making a statement of fact upon which Jesus reacted?

4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

People like to say that this means that this was not the time Jesus planned to start his public ministry. He also says 'what have I to do with thee?' I don't understand that question.

5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

This would suggest that Mary knew her Son was going to do something. How did she know that?

6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

is there significance to the number of pots here?

7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

If his disciples didn't believe in him before, why were they his disciples? Why do you think this is only mentioned in John?

[rcjones]

I really appreciate your attention to detail in this question.

Why was it the third day? The third day is the day of the seed.

The first day was the Day of the light, and John starts out by talking about the light.

The second day there was water above and below and a firmament and the Spirit hovered over the face of the water. John then talks about Jesus' baptism and has the water below, the Word/water above, Jesus in between being baptized, and the Spirit hovering over Jesus.

Now the ordering of the days is curious:
Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him
Joh 1:35 Again the next day after John stood
Joh 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth
Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee;

Though five days have passed, it is called the third day. This is the riddle that points to the day of the seed. The third day in Genesis is when the 'earth was gathered' as Jesus has been gathering his disciples. It is the day that plants with seed sprung forth. This is the day he is 'weaned' from Mary. Before this day he could show the disciples where he was staying. After this day he had no place to stay. This is the day he became the promised 'seed of the woman' as he began his ministry. It is the key to understanding the rest of the questions.

So. Jesus wasn't invited. He was called to the wedding. As he passed they called out to him to join them. Why? He was just made a spectacle by John the baptist. John proclaimed him to be the lamb of God. What greater honor than to have the newly proclaimed Messiah to be at your wedding first?

It doesn't say that they had wine and everyone already drank it up. It said they had no wine. Wine represents grace and living water. He took the water of outward purification and made it the grace of inward purification.

"What have I to do with thee?" He was being kicked out of his mother's place to live with his Father. The question was directed at their future relationship. What would be the role of his mother in the flesh as he began his public ministry? It was a turning point for them both.

Gotta run. I'll be back tonight.

[Joe 5859]

For a play-by-play of any passage in the Gospels, I recommend going to St. Thomas Aquinas' compilation of the writings of the Early Church Fathers:

Catena Aurea ("Golden Chain")

You could also check out Haydock's Commentary online:

John 2

[rwillenborg]

Originally Posted by rcjones

I really appreciate your attention to detail in this question.

Why was it the third day? The third day is the day of the seed.

The first day was the Day of the light, and John starts out by talking about the light.

The second day there was water above and below and a firmament and the Spirit hovered over the face of the water. John then talks about Jesus' baptism and has the water below, the Word/water above, Jesus in between being baptized, and the Spirit hovering over Jesus.

Now the ordering of the days is curious:
Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him
Joh 1:35 Again the next day after John stood
Joh 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth
Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee;

Though five days have passed, it is called the third day. This is the riddle that points to the day of the seed. The third day in Genesis is when the 'earth was gathered' as Jesus has been gathering his disciples. It is the day that plants with seed sprung forth. This is the day he is 'weaned' from Mary. Before this day he could show the disciples where he was staying. After this day he had no place to stay. This is the day he became the promised 'seed of the woman' as he began his ministry. It is the key to understanding the rest of the questions.

So. Jesus wasn't invited. He was called to the wedding. As he passed they called out to him to join them. Why? He was just made a spectacle by John the baptist. John proclaimed him to be the lamb of God. What greater honor than to have the newly proclaimed Messiah to be at your wedding first?

It doesn't say that they had wine and everyone already drank it up. It said they had no wine. Wine represents grace and living water. He took the water of outward purification and made it the grace of inward purification.

"What have I to do with thee?" He was being kicked out of his mother's place to live with his Father. The question was directed at their future relationship. What would be the role of his mother in the flesh as he began his public ministry? It was a turning point for them both.

Gotta run. I'll be back tonight.

oohhh...this is good stuff! I gotta run myself, but I look forward to reading the rest of your thoughts!

[rwillenborg]

Originally Posted by Joe 5859

For a play-by-play of any passage in the Gospels, I recommend going to St. Thomas Aquinas' compilation of the writings of the Early Church Fathers:

Catena Aurea ("Golden Chain")

You could also check out Haydock's Commentary online:

John 2

Thanks so much Joe! I'm off to take the kids to the zoo, but I will read this when I get back! I'm looking forward to it!

[Texas Roofer]

reference :
John
Chapter 2
On the third day there was a wedding 2 in Cana 3 in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding. When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you." Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." So they took it. And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now." Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs 7 in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.

All right folks, I need a play by play on this one:

Why is the list of invitees listed like this? Was it that Mary was invited, and Jesus came too, though he wasn't directly invited? Was it normal for someone's disciples to come to a wedding their mother was invited to?

The USCCB version indicates he was invited but probably is moot because a town wide celebration is likely

Did Mary say this to him with the understanding that he might do something about it, or was she just making a statement of fact upon which Jesus reacted?

I would suggest the wine represents spiritual life and thus Mary is speaking of the marriage's children who would follow incorrect current teachings

People like to say that this means that this was not the time Jesus planned to start his public ministry. He also says 'what have I to do with thee?' I don't understand that question.

In John 1 Jesus calls on some of the apostles, this is a call outside the apostles. Mary maybe suggesting a public launch at the wedding which is a preparation for procreation

This would suggest that Mary knew her Son was going to do something. How did she know that?

Mary always know from Jesus' inception see Luke 1

is there significance to the number of pots here?

I do not know, however the pots were used to cleanse the outside body for religious service before, now they would deliver internal cleansing

If his disciples didn't believe in him before, why were they his disciples? Why do you think this is only mentioned in John? [/quote]

This was a double task the physical appealed to the simple, but the spiritual change was beyond the immediate disciples understanding. They received the Euchrist and were being cleaned on the inside.

Note the "best being served last" is not just wine but Jesus.

these are my understanding

[rcjones]

"Mine hour hath not yet come." This is the humility with which Jesus began his ministry. As a prophecy of this we see David's reluctance to take the kingdom for himself, Abraham's reticence to allow the king of Sodom to enrich him, Jacob's reluctance to be enveloped by the riches of Egypt, etc. According to the prophecy of 2Ch 33:13 Jesus did not know he was God until he returned to Jerusalem.

John used the repeating motif of hearing, seeing and walking. Jesus heard the voice of the Father at the baptism. The disciples proclaim, We have seen him..., and then here at Cana, his mother makes him walk with the Father. She says, It IS your time. Her statement "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." forces the issue.

There were six pots of water. The water and wine here are the word in law and grace. There are six of them because John tells us that there are six ways that Gods testifies of himself. He says there are three in heaven and three on earth. There is hearing, seeing and walking in the flesh and hearing seeing and walking in the spirit. The seven pointed candlestick says the same thing with the addition that all six testimonies are one.

This miracle confirmed in Jesus own mind what he had known only intellectually, that he was God. When he returned to Jerusalem, he cleansed the temple having full confidence of His right to do so.

Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.s

Wine as grace, milk as divinity, Divine grace began to be poured out that day. All of Judah was filled with the water of His word. Christ as the fountain came from the house of the Lord. and the word filled the valley of Hate. (Shittim is a pun for satam meaning 'hate') The prophecy of Joel began to be fulfilled this day.

[DaveBj]

1. "On the third day" was a contemporary expression for "several days later." Don't take it literalistically.

2. V. 2 says that both Jesus and his disciples were invited to the wedding. I think that we can take this one "literallistically" to mean that both Jesus and his disciples were invited to the wedding.

I'll leave the rest of it alone.


DaveBj

[rcjones]

Originally Posted by DaveBj

1. "On the third day" was a contemporary expression for "several days later." Don't take it literalistically.

2. V. 2 says that both Jesus and his disciples were invited to the wedding. I think that we can take this one "literallistically" to mean that both Jesus and his disciples were invited to the wedding.

I'll leave the rest of it alone.

DaveBj

The word is kalew which is to be called or hailed by name with a loud voice. Though it can mean invite, it is translated 125 as call in the AV.

The other is tritos recognizable as it is meaning third. It is also used in the specific prophecy of the cross:

Mt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third <5154> day.
Mt 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third <5154> day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mt 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third <5154> day he shall rise again.
Mt 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third <5154> day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Mr 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third <5154> day.
Mr 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third <5154> day he shall rise again.
Lu 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third <5154> day.
Lu 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third <5154> day he shall rise again.
Lu 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third <5154> day rise again.
Lu 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third <5154> day:
Ac 10:40 Him God raised up the third <5154> day, and shewed him openly;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third <5154> day according to the scriptures:

Since it is used specifically speaking of the cross so many times, one would be hard pressed to demonstrate that it means 'several days later', though I am willing to see the evidence. What rules do you use when determining to read it literalistic-ally or not?

[ab75]

You may be right about the they have no wine reference (as opposed to they ran out of wine) but I do find it odd that he later referenced the the two grades of wine and timing it was served. If they simply didn't have wine, I would expect them to say normally they serve good wine at the beginning but you have saved it until the end, with no reference to inferior wine.

[rcjones]

You may be right about the they have no wine reference (as opposed to they ran out of wine) but I do find it odd that he later referenced the the two grades of wine and timing it was served. If they simply didn't have wine, I would expect them to say normally they serve good wine at the beginning but you have saved it until the end, with no reference to inferior wine.

There very well have been an earlier wine... the observation has little to do with the facts as opposed to what is said about the facts. "They have no wine" is a sensus plenior statement that they have no grace, without commenting on earlier conditions.

But also notice what is not said. It does not say they wanted more wine. So either the guests had not yet had any wine, or the guests had drunk it all up and when Jesus and the disciples arrived later, and wanted wine, there was not any for them. The important link is between the "It was good" of Genesis 1 and the good wine. It was good.

The second possibility would also support the idea that they were not invited as most guests were, but were hailed in as the feast was already progressing.

[adstrinity]

Something from a Fr. Corapi lecture (seen on TV), was how they sewards obeyed Jesus. He told them to fill the jars and they "filled them to the brim". They obeyed Him PERFECTLY, which is what we are called to do.

Also, seek out different translations. In some Jesus asks His Mother, "What does this have to do with you or me," as in, why are you getting involved and why are you getting me involved?

Also, When Jesus asks, I have heard it told by a priest, that this is the beginning of His public ministry. When Jesus talks to His Mother He is saying, "You know, if I do this, things are going to change. I am not going to be your little Boy anymore, I will now be a Man and not be subject to you in the same way." And Mary understands, accepts, and affirms this.

Mary has full trust that whatever happens, Her Son will take care of it. She didn't know what would happen, but, She KNEW Her Son would not leave things imperfect.

[Axion]

Yes. The literal word-for-word translation of Jesus response is: "What is that to thee and me."

The phrase seems to have been twisted in most translations to something that sounds more distancing.

[forTansi]

Hello All,

just joined the forum. The miracle of Cana is a passage in the Bible i love so much because of the lessons to learn from there

1 - Mother Mary's intercessory role is revealed

2 - Her total faith in God's words as proclaimed by the Angel and Simeon made her believe and have faith in her Son Jesus that He would always honour Her

3 - the empty jars to me signifies that when God choose to glorify Himself in your live/ circumstances, you need to look beyond any apparent obstacles and believe in HIM

4 - the servants accepting Mary's instruction to do whatever Jesus tells them reveals the extent of honour we need to give to Her

5 - the servants accepting to fetch water into the jars tells us that we need to have "foolish" or childlike trust in God. not to apply human reason or logic

6 - he servants accepting to take water to the chief of the occassion emphasizes we need to have "foolish" or childlike trust in God. not to apply human reason or logic

then my own question - when did the water turn into wine? was the faith of the servants willing tool in line with what St Augustine said - "the God that created you without you, cannot save you without you"

[Birdchest]

I will make this short, but there is an excellent talk out there by Dr. Mary Healy on the Weding at Cana. Unfortunately I can google her name but have not found the talk.