Faith alone or not? - Page 64

ignatius777 · #**946** Nov 12, '10, 10:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

You guys always have to revert to hypotheticals, don't you? Do you think God, "who knows the heart," had to wait for Abraham to demonstrate his faith before God could justify Him? Gen. 15:6 states emphatically that Abraham believed in the Lord and He reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness. We see this glorious example in the N.T:

Peter testifies: "Acts 15:8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;" God knew Abraham's heart (the seat of faith, Rom. 10:10) and justified him based on his faith (belief) in Him alone. So it was also with the Gentiles to whom Peter preached the gospel.

If God knew Abrahmas heart why did He let Abraham go as far as he did?

ncgolf · #**947** Nov 12, '10, 12:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philthy

What does Scripture say about this MD?

Genesis 22 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar. Then he reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.But the LORD'S messenger called to him from heaven, "Abraham, Abraham!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. "Do not lay your hand on the boy," said the messenger. "Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son."
Abraham named the site Yahweh-yireh; hence people now say, "On the mountain the LORD will see."
"I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly..."

Scripture says that when Abraham passed the test that God then knew "how devoted" Abraham was, and that as a result of that obedience he was "blessed"...

Here is what I find interesting. The event you describe occurred on the third day. God let Abraham know that he must go and offer Isaac up 2 days previous. Was that not an admission of faith?

Why is that not pointed out by Moon as the "faith" moment, the beginning of the trip. As soon as he agreed to go on the trip knowing he must offer his own son, is that not the faith moment Moon clings to so dearly.

Abraham walked with the burden that he must offer his son for two whole days and nights. His walking is the walking in faith, we as Catholics describe.

If Abraham had not obeyed the previous two days ... the events of the third day would not have passed.

Think about it.

LittleSoldier · #**948** Nov 12, '10, 8:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SyCarl

Let's see how the Catholic Douhay-Rheims Bible translates this passage.

For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
(Rom 3:28 DRB)

Hmmm, that's weird because from what I can see the Douay-Rheims translation of that particular passage doesn't have any bolding at all.

Have you been adding to the bible? This may sound nitpicky to you, but I am serious here. Are we supposed to add to the bible?

This reminds me of the addition of the word "alone" after the word "faith."

Pitcharan · #**949** Nov 12, '10, 8:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

.... The fault for this goes to the feet of British Protestantism. I'd love to discuss this further if you would start a thread.

There is already a thread which stopped suddenly for no good reason. The last two posts were mine. Here's the link:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...24#post7181724

Philthy · #**950** Nov 13, '10, 8:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

Where in Gen. 22 is it recorded: "...and God saw that Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac so He (God) reckoned it (Abraham's willingness) to him as righteousness."

Sorry, Pax, but that just doesn't exist. I know you wish it did, but it just doesn't. What he reckoned to Abraham as righteousness was his faith in him alone.

What doesnt exist, IMHO, is the statement that Abraham's "credit of righteousness" was a permanent credit or that it, alone, guaranteed that he would be going to Heaven.
All we will repeatedly hear is the pleading of what those statements "mean" when interpreted through the lens of an individuals soteriology. I remain unimpressed with those pleadings.

Philthy · #**951** Nov 13, '10, 9:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

If there is such a thing as a "mortal" sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.

Oh, there is definitely such a thing as mortal sin. The problem - for you - is that your sole rule of faith doesnt bother to explain what it is and why it would be any different from any other type of sin. The fact remains, however, that John makes reference to "sin which is deadly" (ie mortal) and contrasts it to other, lesser forms of "wrongdoing" which constitute "sin", but not "deadly" sin.

Here is the relevant Scripture:

1John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Mor-tal

1. Liable or subject to death.
2. Of or relating to humankind; human: the mortal limits of understanding.
3. Of, relating to, or accompanying death: mortal throes.
4. Causing death; fatal: a mortal wound. See Synonyms at fatal.
5. Fighting or fought to the death; unrelenting: a mortal enemy; a mortal attack.
6. Of great intensity or severity; dire: mortal terror.
7. Conceivable: no mortal reason for us to go.
8. Used as an intensive: a mortal fool.

4 senses of mortal

Sense 1:
mortal (vs. immortal)
earthbornAlso See: earthly#1; finite#1

Sense 2:
deadly, mortal(prenominal)
unpardonable (vs. pardonable)
Sense 3:
mortal(prenominal)
merciless (vs. merciful), unmerciful
Sense 4:
deadly, deathly, mortal
fatal (vs. nonfatal)

There is sin which is not deadly, and there is sin which is deadly. This latter sin is referred to as "mortal sin", and praying about it doesnt do the trick. Let him with ears to hear, hear

moondweller · #**952** Nov 13, '10, 10:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by placido

1. The Bible (1 John 5:16): "If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray."
Note: deadly sin = mortal sin. The Bible says there is such a thing ...
2. The Catholic Catechism (Paragraph 1857): "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."
3. Answers.com: "Mortal sin is sin such as murder or blasphemy, that is so heinous it deprives the soul of sanctifying grace and causes damnation".
It seems -- once again -- it is Catholicism that agrees with the Bible and Moondweller who (as always) opposes the Bible.

placido

So, IOW, based on your interpretation Catholics never should pray for someone who's committed a "mortal" sin. He/she is damned and no prayer should be said on his/her behalf. Only if someone commits a non-mortal sin is prayer allowed. And where does the Apostle John list these "mortal" sins and "non-mortal" sins? I don't want your opinion, or any man's opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

moondweller · #**953** Nov 13, '10, 10:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philthy

What doesnt exist, IMHO, is the statement that Abraham's "credit of righteousness" was a permanent credit or that it, alone, guaranteed that he would be going to Heaven.
All we will repeatedly hear is the pleading of what those statements "mean" when interpreted through the lens of an individuals soteriology. I remain unimpressed with those pleadings.

IOW, you remain unimpressed with what God said he did for Abraham based on his faith in Him alone. I understand.

Cat Herder · #**954** Nov 13, '10, 10:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

So, IOW, based on your interpretation Catholics never should pray for someone who's committed a "mortal" sin. He/she is damned and no prayer should be said on his/her behalf. Only if someone commits a non-mortal sin is prayer allowed.

We can pray for the conversion of all sinners. We just can't directly obtain forgiveness for their mortal sins.

Quote:

And where does the Apostle John list these "mortal" sins and "non-mortal" sins? I don't want your opinion, or any man's opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

You are confusing the infinite merit and power of Calvary with the individual partaking in the Blood of Christ. The former covers all sins. The latter covers only those sins which the sinner actually washes in Christ's blood. Venial sins can be expiated by prayer alone. Mortal sins cannot.

moondweller · #**955** Nov 13, '10, 10:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncgolf

Here is what I find interesting. The event you describe occurred on the third day. God let Abraham know that he must go and offer Isaac up 2 days previous. Was that not an admission of faith?

Why is that not pointed out by Moon as the "faith" moment, the beginning of the trip. As soon as he agreed to go on the trip knowing he must offer his own son, is that not the faith moment Moon clings to so dearly.

Abraham walked with the burden that he must offer his son for two whole days and nights. His walking is the walking in faith, we as Catholics describe.

If Abraham had not obeyed the previous two days ... the events of the third day would not have passed.

Think about it.

The faith by which God reckoned to Abraham righteousness occurred some 20 years earlier. Read Gen. 15:6. Isaac wasn't even born yet, only promised. Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY place where it's recorded that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham. IOW, Abraham was justified before God only once. And that was back in Gen. 15:6. You won't find it in Gen. 22.

Cat Herder · #**956** Nov 13, '10, 10:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

IOW, you remain unimpressed with what God said he did for Abraham based on his faith in Him alone. I understand.

And I remain unimpressed by this contradiction: Abraham's alleged salvation by faith alone vs. the alleged doctrine that salvation is through faith in Christ, not the Father, alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

The faith by which God reckoned to Abraham righteousness occurred some 20 years earlier. Read Gen. 15:6. Isaac wasn't even born yet, only promised. Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY place where it's recorded that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham. IOW, Abraham was justified before God only once. And that was back in Gen. 15:6. You won't find it in Gen. 22.

Jesus wasn't walking around back then either...

placido · #**957** Nov 13, '10, 11:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

If there is such a thing as a "mortal" sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

And where does the Apostle John list these "mortal" sins and "non-mortal" sins? I don't want your opinion, or any man's opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

From denying the existence of "mortal" sin to demanding a list ... that is a remarkable jump only MD can perform. Do you now believe there is such a thing as "mortal" sin? So, Jesus die needlessly according to you!
You never stop entertaining us.

placido

moondweller · #**958** Nov 13, '10, 11:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

We can pray for the conversion of all sinners.

According to your interpretation you cannot pray for anyone who commits a "mortal" sin.

Quote:

We just can't directly obtain forgiveness for their mortal sins.

That's not what the text says.

Quote:

You are confusing the infinite merit and power of Calvary with the individual partaking in the Blood of Christ. The former covers all sins. The latter covers only those sins which the sinner actually washes in Christ's blood. Venial sins can be expiated by prayer alone. Mortal sins cannot.

Provide the Biblical list of "venial" sins and the Biblical list of "mortal" sins.

How does a sinner actually wash his sins in Christ's blood? What does "wash sins" mean?

moondweller · #**959** Nov 13, '10, 11:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by placido

From denying the existence of "mortal" sin to demanding a list ... that is a remarkable jump only MD can perform. Do you now believe there is such a thing as "mortal" sin? Did Jesus die needlessly according to you?
You never stop entertaining us.

placido

According to Catholic doctrine there are certain "mortal" sins. Show me the Biblical text that lists them. Where does John say here is the list of "mortal" sins. Here is his list of "venial" sins?

placido · #**960** Nov 13, '10, 11:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

According to your interpretation you cannot pray for anyone who commits a "mortal" sin. That's not what the text says.Provide the Biblical list of "venial" sins and the Biblical list of "mortal" sins.

In other words, in the absence of a list (or lists) MD would never believe what the Bible says, namely that "there is such a thing as mortal sin".
He wanted the Bible to say, "there is such a thing as mortal sin, and the list is as follow:..."

placido