Future of Traditinoal Latin Mass (EF) poll

[VetA]

Originally Posted by kamaan

I sent you a PM; don't want to derail your thread any further

o yeah thats right, threads have points, duh i forgot, i do that alot go off on tangents and mess people's threads up, sorry if iv do that to you

[Lamafacaja]

I voted "other", because at this point it's impossible to tell; too many variables...

How much time are we talking about? Like fifty years? Then I'd say that a lot depends on the next pope, if he's more liberal, obviously he'll appoint more liberal bishops who, despite B16's Summorum Pontificum, will have fewer TLM's said by diocesan priests, the ICK, the FSSP, and the like. Then the SSPX will continue to grow. Ultimately I could see it getting to the point where it's almost like having two different rites, two different churches, but no I don't think an actual split will happen.

On the other hand, if we get another couple of papacies like Benedict XVI's thus far (please God), then yeah number three, "The TLM will become the OF again and the NO will fade into history", could very well happen over the course of say maybe a hundred years. But by then, the Church will be persecuted because the world will be so much worse and I think the Church will go underground. It'll be like the catacombs or the English reformation by then. Everything will be very much different in a hundred years from now.

[Momofmyangels]

Originally Posted by Kearney

I think the EF people will still exist in the future, but they will become much like the Old Beleivers in relation to the Russian Orthodox Church. I just could not see the vast majority of Catholics especially younger ones embracing a liturgy said in a dead language (Not to mention the excessive legalism that accompanies it). It's true that some young Catholics now embrace the EF, but they are only a small, small percentage when compared to the majority who don't.

If the EF has a place in the future of the RCC then it probably will not be a very large one. What will happen is that some improvements will be made to the current OF to make it more traditional and this will satisfy the needs of those who might have resorted to attending an EF had not the current crop of liturgical conservatives taken over in the Church.

I was born in the 70's, so the NO was the only option for my family in our area. My parents, however would take us to the TLM as often as they could, sometimes driving long distances to do so. Very early on I knew as I was in the presence of something divine (of course we are, at Mass, but for a child to understand that, is something!), and that is something I had never felt at a NO Mass.

Now that I have a young family of 6, my husband and I travel to as many TLM's as we can with our children. And the majority of people there are young families like us. In our area we do not have a regularly scheduled TLM, like MANY areas, but that does not equate to low interest. Quite the contrary, interest is very high, mostly among young families who want their children growing up attending the TLM. My children do not understand latin yet, but they have absolutely no trouble following along with a missal I have given them and they are 10, 9 and 8 (the younger ones 5,3 and 1 follow with picture books). It does not take that long to learn the latin in the Mass and they have already picked up a majority of it.

So, when you say that you can not see the younger ones embracing a liturgy said in a dead language, look around you because that is exactly what is happening. I fear for what the future holds in this world for my children and I think embracing that liturgy is what will keep them afloat in this world full of chaos.

[h1478971]

Originally Posted by Momofmyangels

I was born in the 70's, so the NO was the only option for my family in our area. My parents, however would take us to the TLM as often as they could, sometimes driving long distances to do so. Very early on I knew as I was in the presence of something divine (of course we are, at Mass, but for a child to understand that, is something!), and that is something I had never felt at a NO Mass.

Now that I have a young family of 6, my husband and I travel to as many TLM's as we can with our children. And the majority of people there are young families like us. In our area we do not have a regularly scheduled TLM, like MANY areas, but that does not equate to low interest. Quite the contrary, interest is very high, mostly among young families who want their children growing up attending the TLM. My children do not understand latin yet, but they have absolutely no trouble following along with a missal I have given them and they are 10, 9 and 8 (the younger ones 5,3 and 1 follow with picture books). It does not take that long to learn the latin in the Mass and they have already picked up a majority of it.

So, when you say that you can not see the younger ones embracing a liturgy said in a dead language, look around you because that is exactly what is happening. I fear for what the future holds in this world for my children and I think embracing that liturgy is what will keep them afloat in this world full of chaos.

It's so true. The younger ones are clamoring for it and the Traditional seminaries like the SSPX and FSSP are overflowing. THAT IS THE FUTURE.

[otjm]

Originally Posted by h1478971

It's so true. The younger ones are clamoring for it and the Traditional seminaries like the SSPX and FSSP are overflowing. THAT IS THE FUTURE.

The SSPX is most definitely not the future of the Church. Any reading of what Benedict 16 has had to say should clear that up.

And just as a curiosity, how many FFSP seminaries are there world wide, and how many seminaries total in the Church are there world wide?

And as to the young ones, 80% don't even attend Mass on a weekly basis; and out of the remaining 20%, only a minor number attend an EF Mass or clamor for it; that is just plain the statistics of reality.

And before you decide what my feelings for the EF are, you might ask instead of jump to conclusions.

[patrick457]

Originally Posted by kamaan

Sorry, but it really bugs me when people talk about what "young Catholics" want. I am tired of people assuming that we need guitars and tambourines to be happy. It feels like some people think we won't be able to get through an hour of Mass unless it is somehow made "fun". I realize a lot of younger Catholics are like this, but so many of us aren't. I for one am tired of being catered to with scandalous "Youth Masses". When you can choose between a ridiculously cheesy and offensive NO Mass or a beautiful and reverant TLM, I think the choice is pretty much obvious. Young Catholics are being driven to the EF by the people who are trying to attract them to the OF, in my opinion.

I'm a 'young Catholic', yet I don't like guitars, tambourines, sappy/cheesy music and experimental Masses either (seriously, many grown-ups are trying too hard and fail miserably at making liturgy 'fun' IMHO). I guess I don't count then.

I'm a bit tempted to pick option number 1 ("Stay the way it is"). Even so, I fully realize that if somehow the EF becomes the ordinary form of the Mass once again – or at least becomes more mainstream, the chances of option number 1 happening is rather unlikely, since nothing is permanent in this world and everything is subject to growth and evolution: with growth comes change, as various examples can show us. Who knows? Some Pope in the future might again make revisions to the Roman Missal - in which case, the Liturgy does not technically 'stay the way as it is', since changes were made. It doesn’t matter whether the changes were big or small; the fact that the Missal was revised shows us that some change did occur. We have no way of knowing whether a new Pius V or Paul VI will come up after many of us have fallen asleep.

I have had a hard time choosing between options number 2,3,4, and 6. It’s fun to speculate, but who knows what would happen in the future? For all we know, the possibility that the EF and the OF would be merged into one is also likely, as is the (much weaker, yeah) possibility that both would fade away to be replaced by a 'new' liturgy. The possibility of it staying in Latin is likely, as well as the possibility of it being in the vernacular. We now have the dilemma of Schrödinger's cat: the cat can be simultaneously alive and dead, as long as you don't look into the box: that is, you are technically free to imagine whatever happened to the cat. Looking into the box limits our choices, since the cat can only be either alive or dead, not both alive and dead. We're still in the earlier stages, and thus we are free to imagine the possible outcome.

Now, I find option number 5 (“The western [Latin] Church will split into two distinct Rites”) not funny. Are we talking about ‘Rites’ in the sense of ‘liturgies’ here (in which case, this would be an awfully incorrect statement, since it doesn’t take into account the other non-Roman liturgies of the Latin Church such as the Mozarabic, the Lyonese, the Bragan and the Ambrosian, as well as rites that are specific to religious orders such as the Carmelite, the Dominican and the Carthusian, as well as local variants of the Roman Rite such as the Use of Sarum), or are we talking about ‘Rites’ in the sense of ‘churches’?

That is why I voted for 'Other'. Rather than spoil myself, I'll just step back and watch things unfold.

[VetA]

Originally Posted by otjm

The SSPX is most definitely not the future of the Church. Any reading of what Benedict 16 has had to say should clear that up.

And just as a curiosity, how many FFSP seminaries are there world wide, and how many seminaries total in the Church are there world wide?

And as to the young ones, 80% don't even attend Mass on a weekly basis; and out of the remaining 20%, only a minor number attend an EF Mass or clamor for it; that is just plain the statistics of reality.

And before you decide what my feelings for the EF are, you might ask instead of jump to conclusions.

conceder yourself asked

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by h1478971

THAT IS THE FUTURE.

Boy, this topic sure brings out the fortune tellers and prophets.

[otjm]

Originally Posted by VetA

conceder yourself asked

Having been an altar server, and at Solemn High Mass a candle bearer, altar server, thurifer and finally Master of Ceremonies, I can understand and appreciate the beauty and solemnity of the EF. I grew up with a missal with translation on one side, Latin on the other and took both Latin and Greek in high school and Latin in college.

I sit and watch the commentaries on the EF, and I guess what amazes me is how little perspective anyone seems to have on the issue.

For example: the comments concerning the number of young people attracted to the EF. I have not done a survey of how many dioceses have the EF available to any extent, but have pulled a few numbers. For example, the Archdiocese of Chicago seems to be one where there are a number of parishes with the EF available - 12 parishes. That sounds like a lot until puyt into perspective: there are about 360 parishes so that works out to a magnificent 3% (and the numbers may be larger now than when I looked; oh golly, it could have had a tremendous increase in one year of 25% growth - so it would now be 4%). That should paint the picture fairly clearly.

Almost all of the talk about how many youth are drawn to the EF is anecdotal and not in any perspective. If 12 parishes in the whole diocese of Chicago have the EF, it is hard to believe that more than 5% of the youth of Chicago who go to Mass regularly are going to the EF. I seriously doubt that it is 10% just because of the way numbers flow and the likelihood that the 12 parishes which have it do not constitute the 12 largest parishes of the diocese. They may be the majority of people attending in those parishes, compared to, sy, the 35 to 55 crowd, or the 56 - 80+ crowd. But they are a miniscual percentage of youth attending Mass weekly.

In short, there is enthusiasm within the group that wants the EF, and a myopia to what is occuring beyond their own front door to an extent that one wonders where critical thinking has gotten itself off to.

None of what I say has anything to do with an opinion concerning the merits of the EF; the EF speaks for itself. However, the actual real-world numbers of the EF among parishes tells a story that those who support it don't want to hear, and too often are of the "shoot the messenger" reaction. The EF simply is not taking off in any significant way, and interestingly, Pope Benedict 16 in his letter accompanying SP predicted the same thing. And he ain't dumb, but many don't want to hear that part of what he says.

And none of that means that the OF will not see changes made to it; I would expect that over time, there will be some interesting and needed changes.

And what we seem to forget is that a) the Holy Spirit still guides the Church, and b) change normally comes slowly in the Church, and given the speed with which changes were made in the late 60's and 70's, one would expect that those in charge would be seriously intending to go slowly, not quickly at this point and well into the future. That, and the church itself has a Pope, and while he has the final say, he does not operate in a vacuum, much as some would like to think or propose. There's something in the nature of 2000 bishops in the world, and they are not mid-level managers; they have apostolic succession just as the Holy Father does, and share in the process of change.

[Monty61]

[quote=Onegin;6958232] I think it's kind of offensive the way we recycle pallid theology and Pentecostal-style music in the hopes that watering down theology will "bring in" more teens.

I hope youth ministers and other people really start to take heed of what teens and young people like kamaan above are saying instead of trying to impose tired rhetoric on them in an attempt to be appealing. Don't insult our young people - give them something they can use to battle the awful, secular culture they live in. Tell them that the world must conform itself to Holy Mother Church instead of sending the opposite message. Let them know that there is hope for their generation.



QUOTE]

God bless you and Kamaan. I am a little younger (5-10 years) than the generation that gave us the Novus Ordo. What you and Kamaan have to remember is that these people are trapped in the late 60's -early 70's. It was the glory days of their lives. Grow our hair long, rebel against everything. Those who happened to be Catholic decided that the field for their rebellion was to be the Church. A lot of stuff that seemed great in the 70's has been forgotten (bell bottoms, mutton chops, mullets, 8 tracks, etc.) but we still have the Novus Ordo, poncho vestments, guitars, and curvy abstract stations of the cross and they are not going to let go that easily; to them these things remind them of their youth.

Somehow I escaped this; I was probably part of the last generation taught Catholicism by nuns who were happy being Catholic nuns. (grade school 1967-1975) They were strict, but kind and gave their whole lives to teach us the faith.

[crazzeto]

Things will remain as they are, however there's no "Novos Ordo", there is Ordenary Form and Extrodenary Form.

Both will continue to be avaialble, OF more so than EF. OF is receiving a new translation, it will go into effect on Nov, 27th 2011 (day before my wifes birthday). Based on my limited examination of the 2010 missal it feels like it should be very much like the literal english found on the 1962 missal, mia culpa in tact (no breast striking as far as I can see).

[JJHIII]

I would like to see the EF restored as the "normal Mass" but at the same time it would be said in the vernacular. Perhaps a latin version would be offered once a Sunday. Thus the Mass would retain the old traditions (use of incense, high altar, kneeling to receive communion, etc.) but it would be said in English, German, Spaninsh, Swahili, Vietnamese, etc.

[crazzeto]

Originally Posted by JJHIII

I would like to see the EF restored as the "normal Mass" but at the same time it would be said in the vernacular. Perhaps a latin version would be offered once a Sunday. Thus the Mass would retain the old traditions (use of incense, high altar, kneeling to receive communion, etc.) but it would be said in English, German, Spaninsh, Swahili, Vietnamese, etc.

I would be so overjoyed to se a return of communion rails!

[otjm]

Originally Posted by lauraposs

At the risk of making others mad, I say look at the numbers....
Your Joe Schmo Novus Ordo Catholic has a contraceptive culture. Even if they have fertility problems or overuse NFP, the contraceptive mentality is present. I know several individuals who are practicing NO Catholics who do not follow the Church's teaching and use artificial methods of contraception.
TLM attending Catholics tend to follow the Church's teaching on contraception. (I'm sure there are exceptions.)
So, your average NO family has two kids, and maybe your average TLM family has 8. (I made up those numbers, btw/)

Have you been to a FSSP Mass and a NO Mass? Who has more kids?

Isn't it just a matter of time before the NO's extinct themselves?

That is why I voted that the NO will be extraordinary in 50 years.

Looking at the numbers is always a good thing; it tends to put the brakes on unrealistic flights of fancy.

Who has More kids? Well, if you want the truth of the matter, the LDS far outweigh the Catholics.

However, it is always fun to make presumptions. I would probably average the conservative families having children as somewhere between 4 and 5; it is trulay a rare family that goes over 6.

As far as the NO's "extincting themselves, perhaps in Europe; the US at this point does not seem to be doing so, although part of that is due to the influx of both the Vietnamese and the Hispanics.
Considering the number of parishe in the US, the number of FSSP parishes is a drop in the bucket. Do a few searches and get a nose count. For starters, there are 194 dioceses (including archdioceses).

And while we are doing numbers, according to Mass times world wide (not just the good ol' USA) about 1 in 250 parishes have the EF; or about .4%. To change that in 50 years?

[Domer1997]

Originally Posted by Andreas Hofer

Although it seems highly unlikely at present, I think ultimately the OF - in any form substantially different from the EF - will eventually fade into history. The whole experiment is premised upon the idea that a church can repudiate its history and sever its ties with its tradition to create a new, better faith and worship. I find that idea simply unbelievable. One poster mentioned that on college campuses students overwhelmingly favor the 10pm dorm Masses that are, shall we say, less than reverent (based on personal experience of schedule and liturgy, I'm pegging that poster for Notre Dame ). That kind of liturgy cannot sustain a church in any kind of long term (witness the Protestant Mainline), and the OF is, IMHO, deficient in similar ways in precisely the areas where it differs from the OF. It will likely get reformed along the lines of the TLM so that we will see a tertium quid that is far more TLM than NO, perhaps actually winding up with the Mass of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I loved our 10pm Notre Dame Dorm Mass. I haven't found anything post-college nearly as genuinely Christian as those Masses. We were a true community of brothers worshiping together as one...I believe Jesus was definitely smiling down on us I wouldn't have traded them for the world. ...certainly did not think they were irreverant in the least. ...wouldn't want to change anything about them (except the women's dorms...some thought it would be retro to bake their own bread. I don't think they still do this...but Lyons Hall women should have read the rules a bit...I almost choked on a nut...I don't think they are allowed to do this on campus anymore because it is a highly illicit practice). Other than that experience in a women's dorm, my male dorm had amazing Masses that need to stay AS IS. Oh yeah...and I understood the language...unlike all five inaudible Tridentine Mass I have been too. ...beautifully reverent I will give you that...but not practical for most Catholics.