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  #16  
Old Aug 25, '10, 9:08 am
Santos Santos is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

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Originally Posted by bingbang View Post
This was a question that a Valentinian Gnostic asked Origen in the second century. He was trying to prove predestination. Origen said that the devil could be saved and a lot of people at the time did not agree with him. I believe he wasn't looked upon very highly by many Christians after this.

Anyway, what is your answer? Can the devil be saved?
No.

THE FALL OF THE ANGELS (CCC)

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."
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  #17  
Old Aug 25, '10, 10:19 am
Mhz Mhz is offline
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Post Re: Can the devil be saved?

If all of creation is by God’s hand and design then the beginning and the end, and everything in between, have to be within God’s design also. We may have “free choice” in this life but only God has free will… there is a big difference.

Because nothing can surprise God then it is obvious that Satan didn’t throw God a curve by his rebellion anymore than Adams fall was a big woops. Satan is a tool of God for the greater purpose of our perfection in this life and the life to come. Nothing else would make sense from our creator and lover of our souls. God says that he created both good and evil, and he also said that he created the devil to destroy. Satan did what he was created to do, and he has done it well.

I think you could make a good argument through scripture that Satan will be redeemed.

Jesus “is the image of the invisible God, the first born over ALL creation. For by Him ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. ALL things were created through Him and for Him.” (Co. 1:15, 16)

“creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption...” (Rom. 8:20, 21) (Unless you believe that Satan created himself then it would seem likely that Satan is part of his creation that was subjected to futility.)

“that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Phil. 2:10:11)

“through the greatness of your power your enemies shall submit themselves to you. ALL the earth shall worship You and sing praises to you.” (Psalm 66:3, 4)

“the restoration of ALL things, which God has spoken by the mouth of ALL His holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:21)

“every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and ALL that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Rev. 5:13)

the Father “has given ALL things into Jesus’ hands.” (John 13:3)

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

Jesus is “able even to subdue ALL things to Himself.” (Phil. 3:21)

Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth in Him.” (Eph. 1:10)

“the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

“do not repay evil for evil.” (Rom. 12:17)

“God is kind to the evil and unthankful” (Luke 6)

“where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” (Rom. 5:20)

“the Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works. ALL your works shall praise you, O Lord.” (Psalm 145:8-10)


“the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.” (Lam. 3:31, 32)

“with God nothing is impossible.” (Luke 1:37) …not even redeeming Satan.

I think we need to take Paul’s words for face value when he said in the end “… God will be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28) That would bring all things full circle to the glory of God!

Mhz
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  #18  
Old Aug 25, '10, 10:50 am
George Marchand George Marchand is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

St Faustina asked the Lord this question and the answer she received was that the angels KNEW from their great intellect what they were doing in rejecting God.

It is not a situation of Satan begging God for forgiveness and God unwilling to do so. Such a proposition from our ignorance likely causes hilarity amongst the demons.

Hell is God's mercy for those who despise Him. Satan's greatest torment is not that he lost God but the knowledge that he once loved God.
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  #19  
Old Aug 25, '10, 11:08 am
George Marchand George Marchand is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

As to why Satan would rebel against God, I suspect he grossly underestimated God's power and saw His goodness and the sharing of His glory as weakness. And for a mad moment he and the rebellious angels calculated they had the power to take God down.

One would imagine Satan impressed the proposition to Michael. While Michael, Gabriel, Raphael perhaps were not certain Satan and the evil angels could not succeed, they chose to stand and remain with God.
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  #20  
Old Aug 25, '10, 12:16 pm
FRocco FRocco is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

The teaching of Origen is called the Apokatastasis and suggests that God's love is so great and irresistable that even the devil would ultimately be saved; hell is viewed as medicinal. The suggestion that all of creation could be restored indeed merits consideration. Although Origen was condemned for this teaching, I think it merits further reflection in light of the "living tradition" as it continually unfolds for us, as we come to a better understanding of what God reveals in through the community of God's people. Indeed this more eastern "economic" approach serves as a correction to the more Western scholastic perspective. Just a thought...
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  #21  
Old Aug 25, '10, 12:26 pm
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EnchantedEve EnchantedEve is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

Here we must distinguish between whether Satan CAN be redeemed or if he WILL be redeemed.

Of course Satan could be redeemed. God wills that all be reconciled to Himself, including Satan and his angels. All creation is moving to return to it's Source, for all things live in Him and have their being because of Him. Thus God's Love is posessed by all and lives in all- including Satan. Thus we have religion, a "binding back" to our origin.

However, Satan, in order to be redeemed, would have to WANT to be redeemed, and therein lies the rub. Given his superior excercise of the will, and of his cognitive faculties, the chance that Satan would submit himself to Redemption (as we all must submit), or that he would even consider such an act, is so negligable that we must therefore say it is not probable. It is of course entirely possible, and as another pointed out nothing is impossible with God. But I would not hold my breath. Satan may be irredeemable because he desires, wants and has made himself so. As it has been observed, God does not send us to Hell, we do.
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  #22  
Old Aug 25, '10, 2:23 pm
BigRedpg51 BigRedpg51 is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

The devil cannot be 'saved'........nor can any of the people who are occupying hell. Just think: if the devil could be saved.......then, there would no longer be hell, because there would no longer be someone to torment those in that place, or draw down a constant fresh flow of souls through temptation to commit sins.

Most of all.......is there anywhere in Holy Scripture, or even in the Tradition (capital "T") of the Church, where it indicates that the devil could ever be saved? Duh!
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  #23  
Old Aug 25, '10, 2:32 pm
Mhz Mhz is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

[quote=EnchantedEve;6991916]

However, Satan, in order to be redeemed, would have to WANT to be redeemed, and therein lies the rub. QUOTE]

I think Saul (Paul) was evidence enough that someone that has no interest in serving Christ could be changed with one visit. If love never fails I'd bet Satan couldn't resist in the fulness of time. I doubt Satan is acting as a free agent. God has a purpose for Satan just as he had with Judas.
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  #24  
Old Aug 25, '10, 2:38 pm
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FairyGirl FairyGirl is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

Of course the devil can't be saved.
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  #25  
Old Aug 25, '10, 2:54 pm
bona fides bona fides is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

We could come at this from another perspective. All things are possible with God but with caveat. God can not do anything that would change His ontological nature. He is unchanging, perfect and complete, I can demonstrate this principal by pointing out some examples that are ontologically absurd. God can not unmake Himself. God can not create a mass so heavy that he could not lift it. God could not do evil. God could not be arbitrary. God could not be insincere or unauthentic.

Could God not Love?

For God to love He must love authentically. That means God could not use His majesty, power and glory to bully any lesser creature (all his creation) into loving Him. That means God must endow all this rational creatures (those with a supernatural soul - angels and humans) with an authentic gift of Freewill. True love can not be forced or compelled but beckoned. God veils Himself behind His Creation and only gives us mere glimpses of Himself so as not to woo us with an irresistible and compulsory love. Man and Angels all had to choose to love God for Himself to the degree that they could each perceive Him and to the degree that God revealed Himself to them. This constitutes authentic and unforced calls to love.

So Freewill is sacrosanct for all eternity. God does not give a gift of nature then take it back - though he will let the receiver sully it or corrupt it since it is the creature's gift to use as he sees fit (there is always a consequence to choices for better or worse). So for Freewill to be authentic FINAL CHOICES MUST be eternal and irrevocable at some point in time (humans) or state (angels). Thus for Lucifer to have a real authentic opportunity to love God he also had to have a real authentic opportunity to reject God. And that justice of that choice to be operable (for good or bad) had to have an eternal finality to it - otherwise there could be no love nor any true freewill.

Ergo - the condition of immortal existence necessitates an irrevocable choice of freewill and an unalterable consequence or expression of choice for there to be the consequences of eternal reward/beatitude or eternal punishment/isolation. There could be no "true choice" if it was revocable.

Most people can't really grasp the idea that we are all immortal beings who simply go through a phase where our corporeal existence passes briefly into pure spiritual (due to body being seperated from soul - what death is) then later rejoined and made whole again. Once we see that this is true its easy to see why Lucifer, fallen as Satan is forever respected by God in His right to reject God's love and to withhold his love in return. It's a principal of love, truth and authenticity of existence. God so loved Satan that He respected his choice to reject Him.

If it were any other way we would all be mere robots to grace with no means to choose to love or to hate but rather just role play whatever script was preordained for us. The key here is understanding that God through Divine Providence has interwoven the infinitely complex threads of every single creature's possible choices into one tapestry of life and existence that is a function of each entities freewill. He saw in the very beginning before a single Creatures was made that a greater good would come out of it all - even in permitting some of His creatures to reject Him and others to love Him - each according to their own freewill.

As one person mentioned - Hell really is a Mercy that God gives a place for others to go so that they do not have to stand in His presence for all eternity and bear the spiritual pain of seeing His full glory forever. Hell is constrained and has limits - God does not. Such fallen would experience an infinitely more severe pain without hell.

BF
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  #26  
Old Aug 25, '10, 3:32 pm
dchezik dchezik is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

Is the devil incredibly stupid? Who would be so dumb as to wage war against an omnipotent being? Did Satan think he had a secret weapon that an omniscient god didn't know about? Doesn't he know he's going to lose at Armageddon?

But granting all that stupidity in a being that's supposed to be deviously clever and sneaky, why doesn't Satan look at the facts: God is going to torment me interminably for disobeying him, but he does give second chances to those who repent. I'm going to say I was wrong and ask him to forgive me -- maybe he'll cut me a break. After all, I was one of his favorites before I so foolishly chose to rebel. He is supposed to be merciful.

Of course, it could be too, that Satan is just a myth and doesn't really exist. The evil that we see is our own wrongdoing. We are born with a hypothalamus that seeks pleasure and sometimes we transgress our own moral code that has been so assiduously conditioned into us.

From Paradise Lost:
Beelzebub to Lucifer after the fall:
"But what if he our Conqueror (whom I now
Of force believe almighty, since no less
Than such could have o'erpowered such force as ours
)"

According to Milton these rebelling angels went into battle not knowing that God was omnipotent! Of course, that's just Milton opinion, but really...were all the bad guys surprised that God was so powerful? The God that made them and all the heavens?

Well, what's done is done. Now Satan, as thoughtless as he is, will surely see the wisdom in calling Armageddon off and sue for peace!
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  #27  
Old Aug 25, '10, 4:52 pm
bona fides bona fides is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchezik View Post
Is the devil incredibly stupid? Who would be so dumb as to wage war against an omnipotent being? Did Satan think he had a secret weapon that an omniscient god didn't know about? Doesn't he know he's going to lose at Armageddon?

But granting all that stupidity in a being that's supposed to be deviously clever and sneaky, why doesn't Satan look at the facts: God is going to torment me interminably for disobeying him, but he does give second chances to those who repent. I'm going to say I was wrong and ask him to forgive me -- maybe he'll cut me a break. After all, I was one of his favorites before I so foolishly chose to rebel. He is supposed to be merciful.

Of course, it could be too, that Satan is just a myth and doesn't really exist. The evil that we see is our own wrongdoing. We are born with a hypothalamus that seeks pleasure and sometimes we transgress our own moral code that has been so assiduously conditioned into us.

From Paradise Lost:
Beelzebub to Lucifer after the fall:
"But what if he our Conqueror (whom I now
Of force believe almighty, since no less
Than such could have o'erpowered such force as ours
)"

According to Milton these rebelling angels went into battle not knowing that God was omnipotent! Of course, that's just Milton opinion, but really...were all the bad guys surprised that God was so powerful? The God that made them and all the heavens?

Well, what's done is done. Now Satan, as thoughtless as he is, will surely see the wisdom in calling Armageddon off and sue for peace!
That's the power of pride. God gave Lucifer incredible powers and He in spite of knowing He could not prevail against God was blinded by it by the thirst to be equal and for pride to not serve God in the flesh as beneath Him. He took pride in the creature over the Creator.

We all do the same thing everytime we sin or give more attention and ear to friends, spouses and material things.

BF
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  #28  
Old Aug 25, '10, 7:51 pm
oak2520 oak2520 is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

There are a couple of points I'd like to interject here.

1) Devils cannot be saved. The Church believes and teaches that since devils, and angels--pure spirits--are able to see through eternity from the moment of their creation, they made a decision based on what they know. Therefore, their decisions cannot be changed. They do know the implication of their choices and choose, accordingly.

2) Although God is love and He does so perfectly, there is still the second part of the equation: the response to that love from the ones being loved. When we love someone and that person doesn't love us back, we do not have any right to hold that person or detain him or her with us. To true love is also to do unconditionally even when our choices will result in hurt and pains. I know that God would have seen the choices Lucifer would make, but I also believe that He might have hoped that Lucifer might have chosen otherwise. If God has imposed how each of us--creatures--choose, we would be simply a robot. Then God is no longer love. I believe God allows this true for the fact that He loves us so much that He also respects our choices.

3) About hell, I was reading the books called An Exorcist Tells His Stories, the exorcist stated that the devils were the ones created hell: not God. Now, I do not really know what the Church actually teaches on hell and its creation. However, from the Genesis, God says after each creation that "it was good", for each single day of creation. Additionally, the 7th day He even says "it was VERY good." As a result, since all creatures and creation by God are good, my colleague and I came to a conclusion that God probably did not create hell. If anybody has the official answer regarding the creation of hell, I would really appreciate it. BTW, the book is quite interesting and fun to read.
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  #29  
Old Aug 25, '10, 9:20 pm
JesuXPIPassio JesuXPIPassio is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oak2520 View Post
There are a couple of points I'd like to interject here.

1) Devils cannot be saved. The Church believes and teaches that since devils, and angels--pure spirits--are able to see through eternity from the moment of their creation, they made a decision based on what they know. Therefore, their decisions cannot be changed. They do know the implication of their choices and choose, accordingly.
Happen to have any source for this? I'd like to read up.
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  #30  
Old Aug 25, '10, 9:22 pm
Mhz Mhz is offline
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Default Re: Can the devil be saved?

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Originally Posted by oak2520 View Post
As a result, since all creatures and creation by God are good, my colleague and I came to a conclusion that God probably did not create hell. If anybody has the official answer regarding the creation of hell, I would really appreciate it. BTW, the book is quite interesting and fun to read.
That's easy. According to Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." KJ
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