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  #31  
Old Sep 28, '10, 11:01 am
notredame_999 notredame_999 is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

thank you shin it makes more sense now. Fr. Gruner articulated this concept at the fatima challenge conference which I saw via video.
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  #32  
Old Sep 28, '10, 11:42 am
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

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Originally Posted by Shin View Post
Some people go to Hell after the very first mortal sin they've committed their entire lives.

If you die in mortal sin, you go to Hell, that is a dogma of the Faith.

God is under no obligation to give anyone a second chance after the first mortal sin. In fact, He is under no obligation to free one from original sin, which also condemns to Hell.

One man, God determines will die one one day, another, God determines to die far in the future. Both decisions are fair and just, and His. His reasons, are His and inscrutable, we cannot judge Him. Period.

His desire for men's salvation is one factor.. justice is another.. both weigh in. Our wills however, are what truly make the difference. While we are alive we should strive to repent today, truly repent and mean it firmly and forever, for tomorrow may be too late.

'My children, we are going to speak of hope: this is what makes the happiness of man on earth. Some people of this world hope too much, and others do not hope enough. Some say, "I am going to commit this sin again. It will not cost me more to confess four than three." It is like a child saying to his father, "I am going to give you four blows; it will cost me no more than to give you one: I shall only have to ask your pardon."

That is the way men behave towards the good God.

They say, "This year I shall amuse myself again; I shall go to dances and to the alehouse, and next year I will be converted. The good God will be sure to receive me, when I choose to return to Him." . . . Do you think that He will adapt Himself to everything in your will? Do you think He will embrace you after you have despised Him all your life? Oh, no, indeed! There is a certain measure of grace and of sin after which God withdraws Himself. . . God would not be just if He made no difference between those who serve Him and those who offend Him. My children, there is so little faith now in the world, that people either hope too much, or they despair. Some say, "I have done too much evil; the good God cannot pardon me." My children, this is a great blasphemy; it is putting a limit on the mercy of God, which has no limit -- it is infinite. You may have done enough to lose the souls of a whole parish, and if you confess, if you are sorry for having done this evil, and resolve not to do it again, the good God will have pardoned you.'

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

'Let us not doubt that baptized babies who die in their infant years will enter into the heavenly Kingdom. We should not, however, believe that all those infants who have begun to speak will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. For the entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven will be closed to many babies because of their parents' bad rearing. In this city, there lives a certain man who is known to all; three years ago, this man had a son who, if I recall, would then have been about five years old, for whom he had such human love that he did not even try to discipline him.

For this reason, the boy, when someone prevented him from getting his way, used to blaspheme the magnificence of God—and let me emphasize that this is something dangerous.

When, three years ago, a deadly plague fell upon the region where he lived, this young boy succumbed to it and was near death. As eyewitnesses recounted, while the father took the child into his arms, the boy himself saw evil spirits coming for him. The boy began to tremble, to blink his eyes in fear, and to cry out in despair to his father: "Father, save me, protect me." Simultaneously, as he cried, he turned his face towards his father's chest, as though wanting to be hidden.

When the father saw his son trembling, in agony he asked him what he had seen. The son answered: "Black creatures came to me and wanted to take me away with them." No sooner had he finished this phrase, than he immediately blasphemed the name of the Divine Magnificence and, with this blasphemy, expired.

Thus, God, the All-Powerful, in order to show by what sin the boy was given over to these evil servants, allowed him to die with this sin which his father, while the boy was alive, did nothing to prevent. And this boy whom God allowed, by His mercy, to live as a blasphemer, by His righteous judgment was also permitted to blaspheme at his death, so that his careless father might know well his sin. For this father, being indifferent to the soul of his young son, reared for the Gehenna of fire not an insignificant sinner, but a great sinner.'

Pope St. Gregory the Great

'In the second place, the sin of impurity produces obstinacy of the will. "Once fallen into the snare of the devil, one cannot so easily escape it," says St. Jerome . . . Father Biderman relates of a young man, who was in the habit of relapsing into this sin, that at the hour of death he confessed his sins with many tears and died, leaving strong grounds to hope for his salvation. But on the following day his confessor, while saying Mass, felt some one pulling the chasuble; turning round he saw a dark cloud, which sent forth scintillations of fire, and heard a voice saying that was the soul of the young man that had died; that though he had been absolved from his sins, he was again tempted, yielded to a bad thought, and was damned.'

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori
I've read the story about the 5yo boy before. I always hoped that the boy was only being carried off to the deepest levels of purgatory..as opposed to hell. It doesn't seem fair that he would be punished so severely for his fathers sin.

I love reading about God's Divine Mercy..it really make me trust in Jesus just like he asked of us in the diary of st. Faustina "Jesus, I trust in you!" However, its stories like the last one you posted about the young man going to hell that really shakes me. I don't understand how this man's fate was determined by a "bad thought"? Surely, there was more to the story?..
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  #33  
Old Sep 28, '10, 12:24 pm
Shin Shin is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

'. . . the person who is in mortal sin is not a member of Christ but of the devil, and is deprived of the goods of holy mother the Church and cannot do anything which will profit her for eternal life. . . note that, should you be in mortal sin, you should never despair of divine goodness nor cease to do whatever good you can do so that in this way you can get out of sin. And with this hope, always do what is right in whatever state you find yourself.'

St. Catherine of Bologna

'This I say, because God showed me somewhat of his truth, in order that I might know what man is without him; that is, when the soul is found in mortal sin, at that time, it is so monstrous and horrible to behold, that it is impossible to imagine anything equally so.'

St. Catherine of Genoa

'We should all realize that no matter where or how a man dies, if he is in the state of mortal sin and does not repent, when he could have done so and did not, the Devil tears his soul from his body with such anguish and distress that only a person who has experienced it can appreciate it.'

St. Francis of Assisi

'As I have often told you, there is nothing so vile as the impure soul. There was once a saint who had asked the good God to show him one; and he saw the poor soul like a dead beast that has been dragged through the streets in the hot sun for a week.'

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

"The greatest sin of our modern generation is that it has lost all sense of sin."

Pope Pius XII

The reason we do not understand is we do not see clearly.

We are used to being foul instead of pure. We do not see the purity and beauty of God and the saints. . and understand this is how we have to be to enter Heaven.

The saved are few. The souls in purgatory in infinite agony lacking God, and desiring Him beyond comprehension. We do not. We are blind... to this reality of how we should be like them if we saw clearly..

St. Christina the Astonishing was able to for example, know some of this true reality... she could not stand the odor of other people because she could smell the sin in them, and would climb trees or buildings, hide in ovens or cupboards, or simply levitate to avoid them.

God is love.. God is holy.. God is sacred.. God is pure..

So how black a speck of sin is compared to Him.. how impossible to love..

One single blasphemy is a horror beyond measure... So our the world with its entertainment, games, movies, shows tells us otherwise.. get rid of it or continue acclimatized towards what should have you shivering in horror, shaking in your shoes, appalled beyond measure...

Run from sin while you still can. Love God and His beauty while there is time. Tomorrow may be too late. The next hour may be too late. The next minute. The next second.
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  #34  
Old Sep 28, '10, 12:29 pm
Shin Shin is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

Christ says to those in mortal sin, that God is not their father:

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do."

Used to mortal sin, feeling like it is nothing, acclimatized.. not understanding how one could be judged for it. That is how it is.

We are born in original sin, the scriptures call us, "children of wrath", without sanctifying grace. Our first parents, chose Satan's side and dominion, and so we are all born within that dominion, on the wrong side.

But Christ died for our sakes, though He did not have to, He loved us enough to die for our sakes, and give us holy baptism, which washes free original sin and gives us sanctifying grace. But what if we should not care about this gift? And commit a mortal sin?

We fall farther into the domain of the devil than ever before. And the weight of that sin weighs more than the entire earth. The soul freed of the body, ephemeral, tries to carry an anvil of weight beyond comprehension, tries to fly to Heaven, and plunges like a stone into Hell.
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  #35  
Old Sep 28, '10, 10:48 pm
Calmlikeabomb Calmlikeabomb is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed (Father Gruner)

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Originally Posted by frindro View Post
This priest is wrong. God's is always willing to forgive you, even if you commit the same sin multiple times, but you must be contrite (meaning, in part, that you intend at the time of your confession to not repeat the same sin, and you regret committing the sin). The only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (CCC 1864), which basically means you die unrepentant of your mortal sins, thus rejecting forgiveness and salvation.
From that link i found

"1864 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

Now does that mean, before i found faith that since i used to talk badly about Christ and God and Christians that im damned forever and should just give up? I mean didnt Paul persecute Christians before he converted?
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  #36  
Old Sep 29, '10, 1:46 am
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed (Father Gruner)

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Originally Posted by Calmlikeabomb View Post
From that link i found

"1864 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

Now does that mean, before i found faith that since i used to talk badly about Christ and God and Christians that im damned forever and should just give up? I mean didnt Paul persecute Christians before he converted?
Yes he did. And St Peter denied Christ three times. Both were sincerely repentant and so they were forgiven.

The only sin that can possibly NOT be forgiven is sin that isn't repented of. Of course, because sin that isn't repented of is sin we don't ASK for God's forgiveness for, and He can't forgive us without our asking!

So it stands to reason that we are able to sin against the Holy Spirit only by dying unrepentant.
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  #37  
Old Sep 29, '10, 6:36 am
journierman journierman is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed (Father Gruner)

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Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Yes he did. And St Peter denied Christ three times. Both were sincerely repentant and so they were forgiven.

The only sin that can possibly NOT be forgiven is sin that isn't repented of. Of course, because sin that isn't repented of is sin we don't ASK for God's forgiveness for, and He can't forgive us without our asking!

So it stands to reason that we are able to sin against the Holy Spirit only by dying unrepentant.
I have always thought that the reason that dying without repenting is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is that it is like saying with your last dying breath that God is not powerful enough to save you. Sometimes despairing over your sinfulness seems like it is being humble but really it is a kind of pride.
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  #38  
Old Sep 29, '10, 6:56 am
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Mary Gail 36 Mary Gail 36 is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

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Originally Posted by dailey View Post
I've read the story about the 5yo boy before. I always hoped that the boy was only being carried off to the deepest levels of purgatory..as opposed to hell. It doesn't seem fair that he would be punished so severely for his fathers sin.

I love reading about God's Divine Mercy..it really make me trust in Jesus just like he asked of us in the diary of st. Faustina "Jesus, I trust in you!" However, its stories like the last one you posted about the young man going to hell that really shakes me. I don't understand how this man's fate was determined by a "bad thought"? Surely, there was more to the story?..
The Church does not teach that anyone specifically is in hell.

This 5 year old boy might have been a victim of mental illness. Tourettes could have been possibility causing outbursts that the child could not control.

The child also had bubonic plague:

Here are some symptoms.....
Quote:
Bubonic Plague Symptoms: Septicemia
Bubonic plague symptoms can progress rapidly to septicemia. This condition occurs when the bacteria that cause plague (Yersinia pestis) invade the bloodstream (this is also known as septicemic plague).

Symptoms that indicate the bubonic plague has reached this stage include:

•Chills
•Fever
•Severe headache
•Rapid heart rate
•Nausea
•Vomiting
•Delirium
•Death.

http://plague.emedtv.com/bubonic-pla...-symptoms.html

Did they understand the science back then? Possibly not. Did God? Of course He did...So In my humble opinion, there is sufficient evidence that God could have been merciful towards a 5 year old who was ill.

Sort of sad that we are discussing the damnation of 5 year olds.
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  #39  
Old Sep 29, '10, 9:06 am
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

Good stuff Shin..scary, but good.

@mary gail..I'm not sure I understand what you are saying? The story told by the Pope is that the boy is taken by demons. It *is* a sad thing to talk about a 5 yo being damned. But like Sr. Rosaria (best teacher ever!) used to say.."just because you are a child, doesn't mean you can't go to hell)!
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  #40  
Old Sep 29, '10, 9:44 am
Shin Shin is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

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Originally Posted by dailey View Post
Good stuff Shin..scary, but good.

@mary gail..I'm not sure I understand what you are saying? The story told by the Pope is that the boy is taken by demons. It *is* a sad thing to talk about a 5 yo being damned. But like Sr. Rosaria (best teacher ever!) used to say.."just because you are a child, doesn't mean you can't go to hell)!
Honestly I don't like to share that one much, but, it seems it is needful. Some parents think all children go to Heaven by default..

Honestly, in today's society children 'can do no wrong'.. but I heard just today about some twelve year olds throwing bricks at an old lady's house, and she took a shot at one of them.. and the neighborhood is behind the old lady, because they say the gang terrorized them..

'spare the rod and spoil the child'? That's scripture too. Once we reach the age of reason, and for some of us that's pretty young however 'immature' we act.. immaturity can be blamed on the parents more than the child in many cases.. how the child is raised.

Well yes, you say then, why doesn't God give a child a pass for bad raising? I'm sure he takes it into account but.. as the Pope says.. "For the entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven will be closed to many babies because of their parents' bad rearing."

He doesn't say 'a few' he says 'to many'.. It's better to take the issue seriously and be afraid than to be complacent and neglect what is most important.. the true reason God allows any of us to have children in the first place.. that we may raise children for Heaven.. not for earth.. because if it's for the latter..

Scriptures say 'the few' are saved, 'the many' are not.. We don't have 'reverse canonizations', but people who make that point don't seem to understand that it doesn't really make the point they are trying to prove at all. It's just a statement that we don't do reverse canonizations.. nothing more nothing less. Scripture states 'the few' are saved for a reason.. and the many stories of people in Hell throughout history make it clear..

It's a fact.
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  #41  
Old Sep 29, '10, 10:03 am
shaky shaky is offline
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Question Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed (Father Gruner)

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Originally Posted by journierman View Post
I have always thought that the reason that dying without repenting is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is that it is like saying with your last dying breath that God is not powerful enough to save you. Sometimes despairing over your sinfulness seems like it is being humble but really it is a kind of pride.
Hi Journierman

How can despairing over you own sinfulness be a kind of pride. The tax collector and the Pharisee praying together. why was the tax collector Justified for despairing over his Sin
And the Pharisee thanking god he was not a sinner like the tax collector seemed not to be not Justified.

What Gets me about bible: You read who is born of God does not Sin. Also you got Jesus saying Sin no more unless worst comes upon you. Then you read he who says is without Sin is a liar and the Truth in not in him. Then you read who can say he is pure and without Sin.
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  #42  
Old Sep 29, '10, 10:14 am
shaky shaky is offline
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Question Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

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Originally Posted by Robert Burns View Post
Matthew 18 : 21 Then came Peter unto him, and said: *Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times?

22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven:


So mathematically 490 Sins you must endure if your brother offends you. And yes I am joking.
Hi Robert

490: That does mean in a day: Not over a life time
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  #43  
Old Sep 29, '10, 10:47 am
shaky shaky is offline
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Question Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

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Originally Posted by Shin View Post
What Fr. Gruner said is perfectly in line with what St. Alphonsus Maria de Ligouri said. It should be understood in that context.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit exists.

Hi Shin

I thought Blasphemy against the holy Spirit is calling the holy-spirit the devil like the Pharisees did when Jesus was casting out demons out by the power of the holy spirit
The pharisees did say That Jesus was doing what he was doing by the power of Satan

I had a Jehovah witness saying that to me once. he believes any exorcism's or healings or miracles that are done today is done by the power of satan. Because he believes all these powers are now passed away.
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  #44  
Old Sep 29, '10, 11:06 am
Shin Shin is offline
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Default Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to always be always some variety of sin that is tied to permanent impenitence, one way or another it prevents it, because it fundamentally rejects/offends/sins against the Holy Spirit.

Traditionally there are six kinds:

(1) Despair,
(2) Presumption of God's mercy,
(3) Impugning the known truth,
(4) Envy the spiritual good of another,
(5) Obstinacy in sin,
(6) Final impenitence.

FWIF from what comes to mind: You can see each of these causes problems in a different way. In despair, you block grace because you refuse to accept that you can accept it. In presumption you block grace because you believe you can go to Heaven in sin, impugning the truth traps oneself in living a lie through one own's mortally sinful fault, envy kills charity towards neighbor, obstinancy locks you into sins that require repentance...

But there are a variety of opinions on the subject matter, the Summa goes over this.
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  #45  
Old Sep 29, '10, 11:07 am
shaky shaky is offline
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Question Re: # of mortal sins we are allowed

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Originally Posted by dailey View Post
Good stuff Shin..scary, but good.

@mary gail..I'm not sure I understand what you are saying? The story told by the Pope is that the boy is taken by demons. It *is* a sad thing to talk about a 5 yo being damned. But like Sr. Rosaria (best teacher ever!) used to say.."just because you are a child, doesn't mean you can't go to hell)!
Hi dailey

I think the concept of some baby who died less then 6 months old in hell does not seem right to me
Imagine if it was you and you find yourself there not understanding what is happening and what you have done to deserve this.
The scriptures are clear you are Judged according to you works.
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