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View Poll Results: Are marriages before SSPX priests valid?
Yes 15 28.85%
No 30 57.69%
Uncertain 7 13.46%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old Apr 8, '05, 8:22 pm
dezembrum dezembrum is offline
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Default Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

I hope to start a discussion with all the Traditionalists and others interested in issues dealing with that movement on the problem surrounding marriages as celebrated in chapels staffed by priests of the Society of St. Pius X. In short: do you think these marriages are valid? why or why not?

I suppose I should make my opinion clear from the start: I believe them to be invalid due to defect in canonical form. I am not a supporter of the SSPX (though I do support many of their goals and sympathize a great deal with the faithful who receive the Sacraments from their priests).

For those unfamiliar with the arguments presented by the Society, a defense of their position can be found here: http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/va...fessions_1.htm

I haven't seen many responses to this argument that are as detailed, but one good (though short) source for the opposing view is: http://home.earthlink.net/~grossklas/matrimony.htm
  #2  
Old Apr 8, '05, 8:42 pm
Cherub Cherub is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

As I understand it, the SSPX priests have no jurisdiction to grant valid Confession or Marriage.
  #3  
Old Apr 8, '05, 9:05 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
I believe them to be invalid due to defect in canonical form.
But if SSPX'ers aren't Catholic, they wouldn't be subject to canonical form anymore than a Baptist is.



On the other hand, if they are Catholic, consider Canon 1116

Quote:
Can. 1116 §1 If one who, in accordance with the law, is competent to assist, cannot be present or be approached without grave inconvenience, those who intend to enter a true marriage can validly and lawfully contract in the presence of witnesses only:


1° in danger of death;


2° apart from danger of death, provided it is prudently foreseen that this state of affairs will continue for a month.
Does the SSPX status of the parties contracting the marriage present a grave inconvenience to the parties approaching a diocesan priest? If so, the marriage would still be valid.


As far as precedent, from my understanding (although I could be wrong), a Brazilian breakaway diocese of the same stripe as the SSPX re: Latin masses, was reunited to the church a few years back. All of their marriages were approved as valid without further action on the part of the spouses.


I'm not a canon lawyer, but it would appear that , yes, SSPX marriages are generally valid.
  #4  
Old Apr 8, '05, 9:12 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Cool Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi
But if SSPX'ers aren't Catholic, they wouldn't be subject to canonical form anymore than a Baptist is.
True but the couple getting married may be Cathollics and are bound by Catholic Teaching.

So to marry in an SSPX Chapel they would need a dispensation from their Bishop, without it the marrige could be said to suffer from a defect of form.

Quote:
On the other hand, if they are Catholic, consider Canon 1116
Quote:
Can. 1116 §1 If one who, in accordance with the law, is competent to assist, cannot be present or be approached without grave inconvenience, those who intend to enter a true marriage can validly and lawfully contract in the presence of witnesses only:


1° in danger of death;


2° apart from danger of death, provided it is prudently foreseen that this state of affairs will continue for a month.
I do not think this Canon can apply as I can see no instance where a marriage must take place because of "danger of death" and number 2 doesn't fit either.

Quote:
Does the SSPX status of the parties contracting the marriage present a grave inconvenience to the parties approaching a diocesan priest? If so, the marriage would still be valid.
What? If the couple is Catholic then they are under the jurisdiction of the local Bishop, period. Doesn't matter what kind of "inconvenience" there is.

Quote:
As far as precedent, from my understanding (although I could be wrong), a Brazilian breakaway diocese of the same stripe as the SSPX re: Latin masses, was reunited to the church a few years back. All of their marriages were approved as valid without further action on the part of the spouses.


I'm not a canon lawyer, but it would appear that , yes, SSPX marriages are generally valid.
Yes and that precedent shows that SSPX marriages are invalid as the Church made all of them valid after the Brazilian group reunited. If they were valid to begin with then the Church would not have had to issue a statement saying that they are now valid.
  #5  
Old Apr 8, '05, 9:45 pm
dezembrum dezembrum is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi
But if SSPX'ers aren't Catholic, they wouldn't be subject to canonical form anymore than a Baptist is.



On the other hand, if they are Catholic, consider Canon 1116



Does the SSPX status of the parties contracting the marriage present a grave inconvenience to the parties approaching a diocesan priest? If so, the marriage would still be valid.


As far as precedent, from my understanding (although I could be wrong), a Brazilian breakaway diocese of the same stripe as the SSPX re: Latin masses, was reunited to the church a few years back. All of their marriages were approved as valid without further action on the part of the spouses.


I'm not a canon lawyer, but it would appear that , yes, SSPX marriages are generally valid.
I hesitate to say that SSPXers are not Catholic. Many who attend their chapels were baptized by priests in full communion with Rome, well before the schism of Archbishop Lefebvre. Even if they were baptized by an excommunicated SSPX priest I think they would still be Catholic. At any rate, they all certainly profess to be Catholic - so as I understand it they are bound by Catholic form (i.e. canonical form).

As far as grave inconvenience, I don't see it. They argue it is "gravely inconvenient" to approach a "Novus Ordo" Catholic priest because of diluted doctine, confusing the ends of marriage, having the wedding take place in the context of the current ("Novus Ordo") Mass, etc. If there is such a grave problem in the Church that a couple could not in good conscience approach your average Latin Rite priest, then what is preventing them from being marired by a solid Eastern Rite priest? Then there is the issue of who is to determine what constitutes "grave inconvenience." Putting this in the hands of the laity (or the SSPX priests) as opposed to a Local Ordinary seems dangerous to me.

As far as Campos (the diocese in Brazil) I have heard that Rome granted Radical Sanations to rectify the problem (though I have seen nothing official to confirm this). This (granting radical sanations) was also a part of the protocol agreement Archbishop Lefebvre signed before the schismatic Episcopal consecrations.
  #6  
Old Apr 8, '05, 9:50 pm
EddieArent EddieArent is offline
 
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

There are arguements here and there about this topic. No, the SSPX doesn't have in the majority of cases, jurisdiction from the local bishop. SSPX marraiges and confessions are argued by the Society as being valid by the case of supplied jurisdiction.

Below are some interesting articles from the Society and bishop standpoint;

http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/va...fessions_1.htm
http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/2002_July/Bishop_Lori.htm
  #7  
Old Apr 8, '05, 9:53 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

RE I hesitate to say that SSPXers are not Catholic. I think only the SSPX clergy have been excommunicated. Further even if one is excommunicated one is still Catholic and subject to Church Law.

I don't think their dislike of nonSSPX clergy is a reason to refuse to go to them for the sacraments.
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  #8  
Old Apr 8, '05, 10:02 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Isn't there a definitive answer on this, and not just from an apologist, but from marriage tribunals?

The church is sufficiently large that there had to be at least some cases where individuals were married in SSPX chapels and at least one party sought annulment from diocesan marriage tribunals.

If a tribunal can grant an annulment on improper form, they certainly would, the question is whether they did when the issue was put to them?

I don't know the answer, but its out there, definitively.
  #9  
Old Apr 9, '05, 8:29 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Talking Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi
Isn't there a definitive answer on this,
If you there trying to say, "There isn't a definitive answer on this", then I can agree with this statement.

And seeing that this is the case (or it is how it appears to this layman) then we must err on the side of caution.

I believe that we must view them as illicit and possiblly invalid and we should incourage all to follow the proper forms.

Stay away from the SSPX expecially for confession, marriage, and annulments as they do not have jurisdiction and in the case of annulments they are always invalid.
  #10  
Old Apr 9, '05, 9:20 am
dezembrum dezembrum is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCath
If you there trying to say, "There isn't a definitive answer on this", then I can agree with this statement.

And seeing that this is the case (or it is how it appears to this layman) then we must err on the side of caution.

I believe that we must view them as illicit and possiblly invalid and we should incourage all to follow the proper forms.
I definately agree, and this is where I cannot understand approaching Society priests for those sacraments. Some Catholics, no doubt, are ignorant of the particulars of sacramental theology and simply think that any priest whatsoever can validly administer the sacraments.

But those who know there is a problem with jurisdiction - I don't know how it is that their conscience does not prick them constantly when approaching Society priests for penance and matrimony. I would think that they could at least have a Society priest as a spiritual director, but confess to a priest with proper faculties, and be married by such a priest. It seems too risky to me to simply gamble and take the chance that they do have supplied jurisdiction.
  #11  
Old Apr 9, '05, 2:49 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

There HAS to be a definitive , yes or no, answer to this topic.


The church is just too big, the number of marriage tribunals out there too large, for the issue of whether SSPX chapel weddings meet proper form requirements NOT to have been adjudicated at one time or another.
  #12  
Old Apr 10, '05, 6:22 am
Sean O L Sean O L is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Eddie Arent wrote:
Quote:
SSPX marraiges and confessions are argued by the Society as being valid by the case of supplied jurisdiction
Which is as worthless an argument as is their contention that they are neither in schism nor excommunicated!

In Australia there are two authorities which need to be satisfied in respect of marriages: the Church and the State.

The Church needs to be certain as to the validity of marriages for a number of reasons, including the future upbringing in the Church of children.

The State also needs authorative verification of marriages for statictics, legitimacy of children to be born, social services, etc.

The State grants the right to perform marriages "for the State" to the local Diocesan Bishop, who nominates clergy (usually Parish Priests) to perform marriages both "for the State" and "for the Church." As SSPX priests do not possess jurisdiction from the local Bishop - they have no jurisdiction "for the Church."

The ONLY other way for them to perform marriages "for the State" is for them to become registered civil Marriage Celebrants.

Several years ago, Fr. Todd Angele performed (at least) two marriages in the SSPX Hampton Chapel. Of course, this did not satisfy the requirements "for the Church" - BUT, he also neglected to ensure that the couple go immediately to a State Registry Office (or civil Marriage Celebrant) for the civil ceremony.

Approx. nine months later one of the couples sought their expected Marriage Certificate from him at Hampton. Ooopps!

I CAN vouch for the fact that they have not been back to the SSPX.
  #13  
Old Apr 26, '05, 8:05 am
dezembrum dezembrum is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi
There HAS to be a definitive , yes or no, answer to this topic.


The church is just too big, the number of marriage tribunals out there too large, for the issue of whether SSPX chapel weddings meet proper form requirements NOT to have been adjudicated at one time or another.
Interestingly enough, I just recently contacted the tribunal in the Diocese of Boise, Idaho (the SSPX have a large following in northern Idaho). The canonist I spoke with indicated that marriages between adherents of the SSPX celebrated by SSPX priests ARE considered valid. This is so because the diocese does not recognize the SSPX as being Catholic, therefore their adherents are not bound by canonical form. If, however, two Catholics were to marry in a SSPX chapel, that marriage would be invalid due to defect in canonical form. The same would be true if a Catholic married a SSPX adherent in a SSPX chapel without a dispensation from form - he/she (the Catholic) would need a convalidation.

I'm not sure what I was expecting to hear, but it certainly wasn't that.

I guess I had always considered SSPXers to be disobedient Catholics, but Catholics nonetheless. This seems to indicate that, at the very least, those baptized by Society priests aren't Catholics, but rather material schismatics.

This raises a question though - if they are not bound by canonical form, are their confessions therefore valid?
  #14  
Old Apr 26, '05, 7:34 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Cool Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dezembrum
I guess I had always considered SSPXers to be disobedient Catholics, but Catholics nonetheless. This seems to indicate that, at the very least, those baptized by Society priests aren't Catholics, but rather material schismatics.
I keep hearing this term on this forum. There is no such think as a "material schismatic". People who are part of the SSPX, who were baptized by them, who entered them and were never Catholics, are not in schism. One can not be born into schism, its right in the Catechism.

A Catholic who starts attending the SSPX Mass may be guilty of schism, I am not going to get into that discussion here, it has been done elsewhere.

Quote:
This raises a question though - if they are not bound by canonical form, are their confessions therefore valid?
It hear confessions within a diocese outside of an emergency (like imminent death) the priest requires faculties to be granted by the bishop of that diocese. As the SSPX priests do not have these, and in the case of at least one diocese are excommunicated, I would say that they are not valid.
  #15  
Old Apr 26, '05, 7:49 pm
Sean O L Sean O L is offline
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Default Re: Marriage by SSPX priests - valid or invalid?

ByzCath wrote:
Quote:
One can not be born into schism, its right in the Catechism.
Whether they know it or not, like it not, the child of a schismatic who is Baptized with the proper Form, Matter and Intention IS at that point of time a Catholic, and will remain in "full communion with the Catholic Church" until he/she willingly partakes in the schismatic "action" (adheres to the schism of the parents.)
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