Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Aug 28, '10, 4:03 am
Genesius's Avatar
Genesius Genesius is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2005
Posts: 366
Religion: Catholic Convert
Question Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

The last stop I made before coming home to Rome was Lutheran. I have a basic understanding of both Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation. I have always wondered if the explanations are simply a matter of semantics (aside from the obvious necessity of a validly ordained priest to consecrate the elements). For instance, couldn't one simply say that "In, with, and under" is just another way of saying that the accidents or properties remain?
__________________
May The Lord Bless You And Make His Face To Shine Upon You
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Aug 28, '10, 5:34 am
Chesster's Avatar
Chesster Chesster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 334
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

No.

Consubstantiation means that the substance of the bread remains while Transubstantiation means that the substance of the bread is changed, i.e. no bread remains.

The two are incompatible.
__________________
Christian, what will be your station at the last day the right hand or the left? If you would occupy the right, you must walk in the way which conducts thither; it is impossible to keep the way to the left, and at length arrive at the right. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Aug 28, '10, 6:42 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: December 15, 2007
Posts: 17,509
Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesius View Post
The last stop I made before coming home to Rome was Lutheran. I have a basic understanding of both Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation. I have always wondered if the explanations are simply a matter of semantics (aside from the obvious necessity of a validly ordained priest to consecrate the elements). For instance, couldn't one simply say that "In, with, and under" is just another way of saying that the accidents or properties remain?
Actually, first, no Lutheran worth his salt would describe Lutheran belief as consubstantiation, on the same metaphysical grounds as our offical rejection of Transubstantiation. For Lutherans, the bread is His body, the wine is His blood, as Melanchthon says in the Apology: "...we confess that we believe, that in the Lord's Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament."

More to your point, the following joint Lutheran / Catholic document, makes the point that the two expressions are not incompatible, at least in a way that is Church dividing.
Quote:
49.In order to confess the reality of the eucharistic presence without reserve the Catholic Church teaches that "Christ whole and entire"34 becomes present through the transformation of the whole substance of the bread and the wine into the substance of the body and blood of Christ while the empirically accessible appearances of bread and wine (accidentia) continue to exist unchanged. This "wonderful and singular change" is "most aptly" called transsubstantiation by the Catholic Church.35 This terminology has widely been considered by Lutherans as an attempt rationalistically to explain the mystery of Christ's presence in the sacrament; further, many suppose also that in this approach the present Lord is not seen as a person and naturalistic misunderstandings become easy.

50.The Lutherans have given expression to the reality of the Eucharistic presence by speaking of presence of Christ's body and blood in, with and under bread and wine�but not of transsubstantiation. Here they see real analogy to the Lord's incarnation: as God and man become one in Jesus Christ, Christ's body and blood, on the one hand, and the bread and wine, on the other, give rise to a sacramental unity. Catholics, in turn, find that this does not do sufficient justice to this very unity and to the force of Christ's word "This is my body".

51.The ecumenical discussion has shown that these two positions must no longer be regarded as opposed in a way that leads to separation. The Lutheran tradition agrees with the Catholic tradition that the consecrated elements do not simply remain bread and wine but by the power of the creative Word are bestowed as the body and blood of Christ. In this sense it also could occasionally speak, as does the Greek tradition of a "change".36 The concept of transsubstantiation for its part is intended as a confession and preservation of the mystery character of the Eucharistic presence; it is not intended as an explanation of how this change occurs37 (see the appendices on "Real Presence" and "Christ's Presence in the Eucharist").
http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int...eucharist.html


Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Aug 28, '10, 6:49 am
Chesster's Avatar
Chesster Chesster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 334
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

The fact remains; Lutherans believe that the substance of bread remains, Catholics believe that the substance of bread does not.

The two beliefs are incompatible.
__________________
Christian, what will be your station at the last day the right hand or the left? If you would occupy the right, you must walk in the way which conducts thither; it is impossible to keep the way to the left, and at length arrive at the right. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Aug 28, '10, 6:52 am
Tomster Tomster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2006
Posts: 4,361
Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesster View Post
The fact remains; Lutherans believe that the substance of bread remains, Catholics believe that the substance of bread does not.

The two beliefs are incompatible.

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Aug 28, '10, 6:55 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: December 15, 2007
Posts: 17,509
Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesster View Post
The fact remains; Lutherans believe that the substance of bread remains, Catholics believe that the substance of bread does not.
What Lutherans believe is that, at the words of institution, the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ. We see, taste, smell bread and wine, but they are the body and blood of Christ, just as He told us.


Quote:
The two beliefs are incompatible
Not according to the Vatican leaders who participated in the document. But in any event, it is the leaders of our respective communions that will decide this.

Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Aug 28, '10, 6:56 am
Redratfish's Avatar
Redratfish Redratfish is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Posts: 625
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesster View Post
The fact remains; Lutherans believe that the substance of bread remains, Catholics believe that the substance of bread does not.

The two beliefs are incompatible.
What do you mean by the substance changes?

Are you refering to the bread itself? The bread is still physically bread, and the wine is physically wine, unless a miracle occurs (as it has happend) that makes turns them literally into blood and flesh.

can you clarify what you mean by substance?
__________________
A Truth cannot contradict truth - St Thomas Aquinas
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:06 am
Tomster Tomster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2006
Posts: 4,361
Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesster View Post
No.

Consubstantiation means that the substance of the bread remains while Transubstantiation means that the substance of the bread is changed, i.e. no bread remains.

The two are incompatible.
Luther taught the doctrine of consubstantiation or impanation, according to which the bread remains together with the body of Christ in the Eucharist.

If, as Luther claimed, the effect of the words of consecration is to render the substance of the body of Christ present in the bread (impanation) or side by side with the bread (consubstantiation), it is no longer true that "this" is the body of Christ; rather, in such an hypothesis, Christ should have said " 'here' is the body of Christ."

The Fathers do not conceive of the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in this sacrament apart from the conversion of the bread and wine into them.

Rightfully, therefore, does the Council of Trent present Transubstantiation as the logical outcome of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:25 am
Tomster Tomster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2006
Posts: 4,361
Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redratfish View Post
What do you mean by the substance changes?

Are you refering to the bread itself? The bread is still physically bread, and the wine is physically wine, unless a miracle occurs (as it has happend) that makes turns them literally into blood and flesh.

can you clarify what you mean by substance?
Evidently, therefore, any philosophy may be reconciled with the dogma of transubstantiation which safeguards the distinction between the "the appearances" of a things and the thing itself; and this is a distinction which any system of philosophy must safeguard if it is not to run counter to right thinking. It is a commonplace of experience that realities are either "things in themselves" or else modifications or qualities of things that exist in themselves. A man, a tree, copper, zinc, these are substances; they exist in themselves. On the other hand, thought, extension, color, physical and chemical actions and reactions, are called in philosophical language accidents, because they require a subject, or a substance, in which to "inhere." Thought does not exisit except in a thinking subject; there is no extension, color, chemical activity, except in a corporeal substance. Substance and accidents, therefore, form a composite unity which is naturally indissoluble; yet, in reality as well as in thought, they are distinct from each other as that which exists in itself must be distinct from that which, in order to exist, requires a subject of inherence. Thus a bodily substance is not its size, its shape, its color, its chemical or physical properties, nor is it the sum of these; it is that which possess these properties, is located, acts and reacts by means of them, and through them manifests itself to the senses. The substance as such is impervious to the senses; if a body had no extension we could not touch it, if it had no color we could not see it. Hence we commonly give to the accidents of material substances the name of appearances, since it is through these accidents, perceived by the senses, that the mind arrives at the knowledge of the substance.

Hope this helps.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:28 am
Chesster's Avatar
Chesster Chesster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 334
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonNC View Post
What Lutherans believe is that, at the words of institution, the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ. We see, taste, smell bread and wine, but they are the body and blood of Christ, just as He told us.
Jon
Do you believe that the substance of the bread remain?
__________________
Christian, what will be your station at the last day the right hand or the left? If you would occupy the right, you must walk in the way which conducts thither; it is impossible to keep the way to the left, and at length arrive at the right. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:33 am
Lutheranteach Lutheranteach is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 30, 2009
Posts: 1,779
Religion: Lutheran
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesster View Post
No.

Consubstantiation means that the substance of the bread remains while Transubstantiation means that the substance of the bread is changed, i.e. no bread remains.

The two are incompatible.
I know at least one priest and one pastoral associate who would say its totally a matter of semantics. I'm not in total agreement with them, but I also don't see these two views as incompatible.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:41 am
Chesster's Avatar
Chesster Chesster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 334
Religion: Latin Rite Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutheranteach View Post
I know at least one priest and one pastoral associate who would say its totally a matter of semantics. I'm not in total agreement with them, but I also don't see these two views as incompatible.
What does the 'with' in the phrase 'in, with and under' mean?
__________________
Christian, what will be your station at the last day the right hand or the left? If you would occupy the right, you must walk in the way which conducts thither; it is impossible to keep the way to the left, and at length arrive at the right. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:42 am
clmowry clmowry is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2004
Posts: 2,695
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutheranteach View Post
I know at least one priest and one pastoral associate who would say its totally a matter of semantics. I'm not in total agreement with them, but I also don't see these two views as incompatible.
It would appear that the Catholic Church would agree with you.

Chuck
__________________
Take this love, therefore, as the end that is set before you, to which you are to refer all that you say, and, whatever you narrate, narrate it in such a manner that he to whom you are discoursing on hearing may believe, on believing may hope, on hoping may love. - St. Augustine
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Aug 28, '10, 7:48 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: December 15, 2007
Posts: 17,509
Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
=Tomster;7002131]Luther taught the doctrine of consubstantiation or impanation, according to which the bread remains together with the body of Christ in the Eucharist.

If, as Luther claimed, the effect of the words of consecration is to render the substance of the body of Christ present in the bread (impanation) or side by side with the bread (consubstantiation), it is no longer true that "this" is the body of Christ; rather, in such an hypothesis, Christ should have said " 'here' is the body of Christ."
Citation, please, where Luther claims to teach impanation or consubstantiation. Both have been historically and verbally, in our confessional documents, rejected. In fact, Sacramental Union, with the words 'in,with, and under" were intended to reject beliefs such as impanation.


Quote:
The Fathers do not conceive of the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in this sacrament apart from the conversion of the bread and wine into them.
I have no issue with this. To spreak of a "change", or metabole is consistent with Lutheran teaching.

Quote:
Rightfully, therefore, does the Council of Trent present Transubstantiation as the logical outcome of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.
I believe Transub. is a reasonable human expression of the RP.

Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Aug 28, '10, 8:09 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: December 15, 2007
Posts: 17,509
Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
Default Re: Transubstantiation VS. Consubstantiation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesster View Post
Do you believe that the substance of the bread remain?
What I believe is what Christ said in the upper room. "Take and eat, this is my body." I believe that when the pastor/priest says the words of institution, by the power of the Holy Spirit, there then is the true and substantial body of Christ. Just as He said.

And as John of Damascus said, “… if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit”

For me, this means that beyond Christ's words - "This is my body, This is my blood", the metaphysical disposition of the bread and wine, following consecration, are irrelevent. I know what I see, I know what I taste and smell. But masked under what my senses wrongly perceive as mere bread and wine, are the true and substantial body and blood of Christ.

Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8460Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Weejee
5147CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: 77stanthony77
4424Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3863SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3742Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: daughterstm
3322Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3285Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3224Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3112For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Kellyreneeomara



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:58 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.