Implied accusation of disobedience

floresco · #1 Aug 29, '10, 10:48 am

This weekend I attended the local parish's OF with my family. I was sitting next to a very sweet lady who has noticed that I only receive Communion from the priest and was clearly concerned about me. After Mass she asked me about why I do this. I told her both my practical reason and my theological one. I receive on the tongue and kneeling which few EMoCs have been trained to expect. It would be awkward at best and, at worst, the Blessed Sacrament might fall. My theological reason is a wish to acknowledge the special link between the Sacraments of Ordination and Eucharist.

The concerned lady did not respond directly to what I said but told me a story about a time she had been tempted to not receive Communion from an Extraordinary Minister (because she didn't like him) but she knew that it was important to be obedient so she did it anyhow. Her point seemed to be that I should stop my "disobedience" and receive Communion from lay people. Since she was so clearly well-meaning, I just smiled and thanked her, but it is a bit depressing to know that people think of me as disobedient to the Church.

HCC · #2 Aug 29, '10, 10:58 am

The situation you described is exactly why I stopped attending the occasional OF Mass. Even well intentioned, theologically orthodox people are confused. That is not an act of disobedience. You know that and any well informed Catholic knows that--that is what is important. I would have nicely mentioned that it was not disobedience to receive only from the priest and let it go. Don't let it bother you.

Victorious · #3 Aug 29, '10, 12:54 pm

Fr. Z. has a good post on this whole question of "obedience" with particular reference to whether we are being "disobedient" when we kneel for Holy Communion (answer: no). I think the reasoning behind this is helpful in general whenever one is hit with the "disobedience" canard.

ConservativeOne · #4 Aug 29, '10, 1:08 pm

Couldn't help but reply after re-reading your post...Your fellow-parishioner is concerned that you only want to receive from the priest?.

Gives me chills. If that were a conservative Catholic speaking, we might be accused of paying too much attention to other worshippers instead of our own prayer, etc. While we have to agree with Holy Mother the Church's decrees - and while there have become needs at times for ordinary ministers, I'd think Church attendance is so in decline in numbers that there almost wouldn't be a need. I say do as your conscience tells you - particularly, in cases of your Faith and Tradition. Don't worry or let others give you pause. God love you.

Victorious · #5 Aug 29, '10, 1:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConservativeOne

While we have to agree with Holy Mother the Church's decrees - and while there have become needs at times for ordinary ministers, I'd think Church attendance is so in decline in numbers that there almost wouldn't be a need.

And we need to keep in mind that there is a distinction between what is decreed and what is tolerated; and sometimes things are tolerated that should not be tolerated. The Church decrees that priests and deacons are ordinary ministers of Holy Communion; that they have a duty to exercise their office; that they should never give place to EMHCs; and that there should be a genuine need before deploying EMHCs.

Ockham · #6 Aug 29, '10, 2:44 pm

With the improvements to the OF and the gaining popularity of the EF there will be more challenges from the modernists. Traditional Catholics need to be prepared for those simply confused and curious to those harbouring ulterior motives. Patience, counsel, and fortitude from the Holy Spirit are required.

kozlosap · #7 Aug 29, '10, 3:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

i do the same. if the priest is on the other side, i will cut in line and go where the priest is.
we are being disobedient to the modernists and not God. being zelous for God is pleasing to Him. what is not pleasing to Him are the modernists with their pride and arrogance.

???Pride and arrogance defined above.

Annabelle Marie · #8 Aug 29, '10, 3:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConservativeOne

Couldn't help but reply after re-reading your post...Your fellow-parishioner is concerned that you only want to receive from the priest?.

Gives me chills. If that were a conservative Catholic speaking, we might be accused of paying too much attention to other worshippers instead of our own prayer, etc. While we have to agree with Holy Mother the Church's decrees - and while there have become needs at times for ordinary ministers, I'd think Church attendance is so in decline in numbers that there almost wouldn't be a need. I say do as your conscience tells you - particularly, in cases of your Faith and Tradition. Don't worry or let others give you pause. God love you.

Hmmm...I'm curious...even the Fr. Vincent Sherpa said to a questioner that they are concentrating too much on from who they receive then on who they are receiving....

I will say on the EM...I know our Church attendance is not so low that there isn't a need for them. We are busting at the seams!

To the OP--your parishioner was trying to be well meaning...why not just leave it at that?

The Old Medic · #9 Aug 29, '10, 3:15 pm

This is not disobedience, but it is silly. I have had people kneel, and receive the Eucharist on the tongue. It causes no major problems.

Eucharistic Ministers are approved by Canon Law, therefore, there is no valid theological reason not to accept Communion from them. That is just your own choice. You are free to make such a choice, but don't attempt to cloak it in theology, because the actual teachings of the Roman Catholic Church would not support your position.

floresco · #10 Aug 29, '10, 3:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

what is not pleasing to Him are the modernists with their pride and arrogance.

There weren't any modernists or pride or arrogance involved in the story I told. My fellow parishioner seemed to think that there is a rule that we must receive from EMHCs. She was acting out of genuine concern for my spiritual well-being. She is a very good Catholic although not well-informed on this particular point.

floresco · #11 Aug 29, '10, 3:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Old Medic

Eucharistic Ministers are approved by Canon Law, therefore, there is no valid theological reason not to accept Communion from them. That is just your own choice. You are free to make such a choice, but don't attempt to cloak it in theology, because the actual teachings of the Roman Catholic Church would not support your position.

It is an actual teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that there is a special link between the Sacraments of Eucharist and Ordination. It is my own choice to acknowledge that link by only receiving Communion from an ordained man. I am not claiming it is wrong to receive from an EMHC, but I am not comfortable doing it.

Iron Donkey · #12 Aug 29, '10, 4:54 pm

I like Father Z and usually agree with what he has to say, but I think I have to disagree a little bit with him, and a little with you as well, on the standing/kneeling part. (I do actually prefer to receive from the priest and do so when I can without being disruptive, but do not mind receiving from someone else when required.)

"The norm for reception of holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing." The argument I'm reading here (correct me if I'm oversimplifying) is that the document is simply saying what is happening rather than what should happen.

The word "norm" might imply that the the statement is not always applicable, but the fact that they bothered to mention the issue hints that it's more than a mere observation on what is going on. It seems to me that officially writing it as a norm is defining the method the Eucharist should be received, but possibly with some exceptions. It does not seem like just mentioning what usually happens would be worth the time I'm sure went into the document.

I can see the exceptions to the norm including the extraordinary form of the Mass and ministering to those who cannot leave the pew. I cannot see the exceptions including personal preference, even if motivated by the deepest respect for the Eucharist (as such a preference would almost certainly have to be by its nature). If so, then why mention the norm at all? I can see attending the Extraordinary Form out of dislike of the Ordinary norms, but I cannot see using respect for the Eucharist to justify participating in the Ordinary Form in a way contrary to its design.

"Communicants should not be denied holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm (GIRM 160)."

As the apologist Michelle Arnold pointed out (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=488083) this seems to suggest that a person who kneels should be corrected. It says, basically, "if they kneel, give them the Eucharist but tell them not to do it again later." Which means that you really shouldn't be kneeling in the ordinary form.

To call kneeling at communion "disobedience" probably would depend on whether or not you have been instructed not to. If you've been convinced that the norms say not to (or even if you haven't but the local Bishop or presiding priest told you not to), then yes it is.

As a last note, Father Z seems to hint, I think in an (at least partially) joking manner, that standing for the Eucharist is a product of a misguided modern attempt to replace the idea of the Awesome God - whose power is such that even his mere messengers have to introduce themselves with "be not afraid" because the infinitesimal portion of God's power and glory that manifests itself in them could easily terrify the people they've come to see into some sort of trembling catatonic state - with Buddy Jesus.

There might be something to that, I don't know. I'm young enough that while I find the Latin Mass beautiful (except the one time the two altar servers were silently bickering behind the priest's back - not even the Latin Mass solves all such problems), I am more comfortable in an English version so long as it doesn't have tambourines. I wasn't around for the transition. I do understand that someone used to the Latin Mass might be uncomfortable with most Ordinary Form Masses, though I have been to (and prefer) tambourine-less English Masses that are just as solemn and beautiful as the Latin Masses I have attended.

So I can see why a person wouldn't want to stand to receive the Eucharist out of respect, and I can see a preference for the Latin Mass (they rarely have tambourines, as I understand), and I imagine that the only reason why I don't share these sentiments is that I grew up seeing the Eucharist received standing in the Ordinary form. But despite a understandable preference for the Extraordinary Form, the Ordinary Form of the Mass is still a Mass, and the norms that determine its celebration require as much respect and adherence as the norms of the Latin Mass do/did during its celebration, when it was the ordinary from and now. And these norms are the norms even if we don't like them. If our respect for the Eucharist forces one of us to refrain from receiving standing, then it may be that the only solution is to not receive at Ordinary Form Masses. It could be that I'm being overly picky here, but I cannot make myself reconcile ignoring a norm of the Mass for a personal devotion, no matter how well meaning. (After all, all the liturgical abuses, such as tambourines, that we witness at Ordinary Form Masses all the time are also well meaning. The problem with these is that the personal ideas of what is good intrudes upon the Mass in an inappropriate manner, not that the person who commits them doesn't have his heart in the right place.)

In conclusion, I really hate tambourines.

Ockham · #13 Aug 29, '10, 5:11 pm

Sadly, most OFs are so poorly attended it is quite easy to slip out of a superfluous EMHC's line and into a priest's. I do it everytime.

**ProVobis** · #14 Aug 29, '10, 6:17 pm

In the OF I attend, I just sit on the side where I know the priest will be distributing. That's usually the side where all the small kids sit as their parents take them to get blessed at communion time.

Corki · #15 Aug 29, '10, 6:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ockham

With the improvements to the OF and the gaining popularity of the EF there will be more challenges from the modernists. Traditional Catholics need to be prepared for those simply confused and curious to those harbouring ulterior motives. Patience, counsel, and fortitude from the Holy Spirit are required.

Do you know something we don't? I haven't heard of any improvements to the OF coming along.