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Sep 1, '10, 9:36 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
Posts: 1,321
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
in the RS it is clearly stated that the local Conference of Bishops choose the appropriate posture for receiving Communion. So the authority falls on the local Bishops, not the Pope or the CDWDS.
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Once they have chosen the posture it has to be approved by the CDWDS and they can say no can't they?
The Norm is to recieve Communion on the tonue. If you recieve Communion on the hand are you being dissobedient? No, becuase the Holy See allows a special indult in some places.
The Norm in the US is to recieve Communion standing. If you recieve Communion kneeling are you being dissobedient? No, becuase the Holy See allows standing only provided those who wish to kneel are free. - Why would the Holy See allow the faithful to be dissobedient to their Bishops?
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
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Sep 1, '10, 9:49 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
The norm in Australia is to stand (it used to be kneeling). So if I and other Aussies choose to kneel some might say we are being dissobedient to our wonderful Bishops.
Well here is Pope Benedict praying Mass at St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney, just the other year, and is Pope Benedict following the Australian norm? Nope.
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
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Sep 1, '10, 11:04 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canto
Once they have chosen the posture it has to be approved by the CDWDS and they can say no can't they?
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It has to receive Recognitio, to be more specific
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canto
The Norm is to recieve Communion on the tonue. If you recieve Communion on the hand are you being dissobedient? No, becuase the Holy See allows a special indult in some places.
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The difference here is that the GIRM is absolutely clear that COTT and CITH are both allowed in the US. There is no mention of kneeling in the GIRM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canto
The Norm in the US is to recieve Communion standing. If you recieve Communion kneeling are you being dissobedient? No, becuase the Holy See allows standing only provided those who wish to kneel are free. - Why would the Holy See allow the faithful to be dissobedient to their Bishops?
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They are not. But its not Rome's pastoral duty to correct the flock of each Bishop. That is why the clause says that those who kneel are to be addressed pastorally later on. Its up to the Bishop and his Priests to address the pastoral needs of their flock.
__________________
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The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 1, '10, 11:09 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Our little group in the parish had dinner with our pastor today. I've had apprehensions about him in the past but tonight things just changed. I got to know him better and find what a wonderful pastor he truly is.
In this issue of disobedience or not, instead of each of becoming our own self appointed canon lawyers. why don't we spend some time with these priests from both sides. Not just priests who we agree with, but those who we don't think share our view of Catholicism. Perhaps our eyes will be opened just as mine was tonight.
__________________
☦
The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 1, '10, 11:22 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
Posts: 1,321
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Our little group in the parish had dinner with our pastor today. I've had apprehensions about him in the past but tonight things just changed. I got to know him better and find what a wonderful pastor he truly is.
In this issue of disobedience or not, instead of each of becoming our own self appointed canon lawyers. why don't we spend some time with these priests from both sides. Not just priests who we agree with, but those who we don't think share our view of Catholicism. Perhaps our eyes will be opened just as mine was tonight.
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Priests on all sides must be respected. Now a certain Priest by the name of Pope Benedict prefers us to kneel.
If it's what the Pope prefers, if it's the Latin tradtion, if kneeling for God is throughout the OT and NT, why not just let those who wish to kneel, kneel? Why should anyone bring up disobedience?
The Sister who got a pen from Obama for supporting the health care bill, that's disobedience, not kneeling in the real presence of God under the sacramental veil of the Blessed Sacrament.
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
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Sep 1, '10, 11:28 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canto
Priests on all sides must be respected. Now a certain Priest by the name of Pope Benedict prefers us to kneel.
If it's what the Pope prefers, if it's the Latin tradtion, if kneeling for God is throughout the OT and NT, why not just let those who wish to kneel, kneel? Why should anyone bring up disobedience?
The Sister who got a pen from Obama for supporting the health care bill, that's disobedience, not kneeling in the real presence of God under the sacramental veil of the Blessed Sacrament.
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You must realize your Bishop is not the Pope. You cannot disregard your own Bishop and pledge allegiance to the Pope only. Unless of course you are in the Diocese of Rome, and your Bishop is also the Pope. But otherwise, you have to respect the overseer you have been given. We always say, being Catholic is not pick and choose. Why are we picking and choosing then what to obey and what not to obey? Doesn't mean that you are choosing some other practice within the Church means its okay to disregard your Bishop's authority.
__________________
☦
The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 1, '10, 11:45 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
Posts: 1,321
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
You must realize your Bishop is not the Pope. You cannot disregard your own Bishop and pledge allegiance to the Pope only. Unless of course you are in the Diocese of Rome, and your Bishop is also the Pope. But otherwise, you have to respect the overseer you have been given. We always say, being Catholic is not pick and choose. Why are we picking and choosing then what to obey and what not to obey? Doesn't mean that you are choosing some other practice within the Church means its okay to disregard your Bishop's authority.
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My Bishop  must respect my right to kneel, and he  does.
As the song says, love is a two way street. 
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
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Sep 1, '10, 11:55 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canto
My Bishop must respect my right to kneel, and he does.
As the song says, love is a two way street. |
I see you are from Australia. I don't know what is the norm there. Here is Canada, there are no adaptations approved as of yet. So people are free to kneel. However, in the US it is a different case.
__________________
☦
The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 1, '10, 11:58 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
Posts: 1,321
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
I see you are from Australia. I don't know what is the norm there. Here is Canada, there are no adaptations approved as of yet. So people are free to kneel. However, in the US it is a different case.
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In OZ the norm is to stand.
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
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Sep 2, '10, 12:11 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
I just found that out myself. I Googled the Australian GIRM (approved in 2007, why does Canada doesn't have one then?  )
Quote:
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In Australia standing is the most common posture for receiving Holy Communion. The customary manner of reception is recommended to be followed by all, so that Communion may truly be a sign of unity among those who share in the same table of the Lord. When approaching to receive Holy Communion, the faithful bow in reverence of the Mystery that they are to receive.
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__________________
☦
The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 2, '10, 12:19 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
Posts: 1,321
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
I just found that out myself. I Googled the Australian GIRM (approved in 2007, why does Canada doesn't have one then? ) |
The recomendation (not demand) of our great OZ Bishops does not take away one's right to kneel.
As for unity, if we all knelt in Australia, like we used to, than that would be a sign of unity too.
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
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Sep 2, '10, 12:30 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canto
The recomendation (not demand) of our great OZ Bishops does not take away one's right to kneel.
As for unity, if we all knelt in Australia, like we used to, than that would be a sign of unity too.
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I do not disagree with that. But that is not what the Bishops ask of you.
__________________
☦
The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 2, '10, 12:32 am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Posts: 16,306
Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
In this thread there are those that say, "I follow my Bishop." There are those that say, "I follow the Pope." I offer to you today's reading:
1 Cor 3:1-9
Brothers and sisters,
I could not talk to you as spiritual people,
but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.
I fed you milk, not solid food,
because you were unable to take it.
Indeed, you are still not able, even now,
for you are still of the flesh.
While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,
are you not of the flesh, and walking
according to the manner of man?
Whenever someone says, "I belong to Paul," and another,
"I belong to Apollos," are you not merely men?
What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul?
Ministers through whom you became believers,
just as the Lord assigned each one.
I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth.
Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything,
but only God, who causes the growth.
He who plants and he who waters are one,
and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.
For we are God's co-workers;
you are God's field, God's building.
__________________
☦
The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere.
--Fr. Alexander Schmemann
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Sep 2, '10, 12:36 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: January 12, 2008
Posts: 1,321
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Implied accusation of disobedience
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
I do not disagree with that. But that is not what the Bishops ask of you.
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The Bishops recomend, but they do not demand
Their recomendation does not take away one's right to kneel
Wanting to kneel for God does not mean jealousy, rivalry, flesh
I follow my Bishop, using my right to kneel doesn't negate that
Why such fuss? St Paul did tell us to hold onto the tradtions handed down to us. He did say at the name of Christ every knee should bend - how much more in his real presence.
__________________
stand fast and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word OR by our epistle - 2 Thes 2:15
Don't deny the science: “Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.” - Vat II
http://www.priestsforlife.org
|
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