Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Social Justice
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #31  
Old Sep 5, '10, 1:05 pm
1234 1234 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2008
Posts: 1,094
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuwano View Post
You seem to be arguing that we shouldn't have laws against slavery because some people have found ways to go against the law and enslave others anyway. The same could be said of drunk driving, shoplifting, littering and yes, abortion. According to your argument we shouldn't have laws against anything at all because there is always someone who will break them, but a society which has no law to aid in the governance of relationships between human beings and to protect the weakest among us, runs the risk of existing only according to the law of "might makes right." Leaving aside the issue of abortion itself, your argument against attempting to make a law banning abortion because ways will be found to get around the law, is not a very bright argument.
An unenforceable law is not a very bright law. Prohibition proved that. My aside re slavery, that it was mostly enforceable, was just that--an aside--slavery is now illegal and the law banning slavery is enforceable, for the most part.

Criminalizing abortion will not decrease its incidence. Those opposing abortion should fight to prevent conception in the first place. The so-called "pro-choice" and the "pro-life" disagree mainly about means, not about ends.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old Sep 5, '10, 1:52 pm
1234 1234 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2008
Posts: 1,094
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Criminalizing abortion would join a growing list a number of important types of behavior in the US which the law cannot regulate or prevent, including cigarette smoking, alcohol consumption, drug use and male homosexual behavior, known to spread HIV and AIDS. States are reluctantly decriminalizing marijauna and enabling IV drug users, through methadone and needle exchange programs, to control the crime and medical problems these addictions create, because they can’t enforce their illegality. It is impossible to regulate promiscuous sexual behavior, other than closing the bathhouses (in San Francisco) and promoting condom use. Adding to the increasing difficulty of criminalizing abortion is the fact that more medical means are becoming available, the most recent through the now 5-day “morning after” pill. Increasingly non-physicians can perform both medical and surgical abortions. Who is going to try to regulate pharmacists, nurses, physician assistants, even EMTs?

Most Americans do not regard an embryo, implanted or unimplanted,as the equivalent of an adult human. Most Americans, also, both on the left as well as the right, wish to restrict the government’s intervention into their lives. Most realize that having given the government permission to do so regarding an issue which they support, such as criminalizing abortion, means that now the government can do so in issues they do not support. The door swings both ways.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old Sep 5, '10, 8:56 pm
Tsuwano Tsuwano is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2008
Posts: 2,653
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1234 View Post
An unenforceable law is not a very bright law. Prohibition proved that. My aside re slavery, that it was mostly enforceable, was just that--an aside--slavery is now illegal and the law banning slavery is enforceable, for the most part.

Criminalizing abortion will not decrease its incidence. Those opposing abortion should fight to prevent conception in the first place. The so-called "pro-choice" and the "pro-life" disagree mainly about means, not about ends.
I disagree that a law banning abortion will not decrease it's prevalence. I also think that the disagreements between those who support the legalization of abortion and those who are pro-life are deeper than what you seem to think. The major disagreement, in my opinion, is about whether a fetus is a human being who deserves the protection of the law. Pro-life people claim that the fetus is a human person and does deserve that protection. This is why abortion is rightfully condemned as murder. Abortion is not merely about ending a pregnancy. It's about ending a human life.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old Sep 7, '10, 11:34 am
Wowbagger's Avatar
Wowbagger Wowbagger is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2009
Posts: 742
Religion: Faithful Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

You are making assertions, 1234, without providing evidence. This is because no good evidence exists to support your assertions.

The idea that the prosecution of abortion doctors could not reduce the number of abortions is absurd, and utterly unsupported by statistical evidence from stable first-world countries. Criminalization of homosexual behaviour proved virtually unenforceable because it was a so-called "victimless crime," which was low-profile, easily and habitually committed, left behind little evidence, and, above all, put all the participants in legal jeopardy, making it highly unlikely that witnesses/participants would ever report it. Illegal abortion, by contrast, would be neither easy nor frequent, requiring personal contacts in the underground abortion industry. It does involve considerable equipment and leaves behind evidence, and (although the primary victim ends up dead), because the mother is so often a "second victim" of abortion (not to mention the child's father), there would be (and always was) ample opportunity for the killing to be reported to the authorities. Take away abortionists' medical licenses, throw a few notorious abortionists in jail for a while, and pretty soon abortion is as rare in this country as slavery is today. Abortions have been outlawed with reasonable effectiveness in first-world countries in the past; today such a law would only be more effective.

The idea that pharmaceutical abortions could not be curtailed is considerably crazier. Maybe by removing mifepristone and progestin bombs from the shelves and making it illegal to give out prescriptions for them? Very few doctors or pharmacists are willing to risk losing their medical licenses -- much less jail time -- for the sake of their beliefs about abortion.

For the record, even if anti-abortion law were largely unenforceable (which it is not), it should be on the books, because it is a grevious, brutal crime with a very clear, very dead victim. We are only able to consider drug legalization and the repeal of Prohibition because substance abuse only directly injures those who abuse. We would never consider legalizing a crime with a clear victim.

Consider, 1234, that (according to RAINN) only 40% of rapes are reported, only 9% of rapes result in a conviction, and only 6% of total rapists ever serve a day in jail. Clearly, the anti-rape laws are unenforceable (not to mention intrusive!). So tell me, 1234: if you had the power to do so, would you legalize rape?

Quote:
Most realize that having given the government permission to do so regarding an issue which they support, such as criminalizing abortion, means that now the government can do so in issues they do not support. The door swings both ways.
Lastly, this gobbledygook should be addressed. There is no legal, ethical, or logical principle that gets us from "recognition of the humanity of the fetus" and the concomitant "abortion is illegal," to any of the red herrings the abortion lobby pretends would follow from the illegalization of abortion. "Government control of women's bodies," "all contraception outlawed," "repeal of women's suffrage," "Big Brother will wiretap your television" -- it's all total nonsense, based entirely in an ideology that absolutely denies the possibility that the pro-life argument in favor of the humanity of the fetus is anything but a sexist ploy to put women back in the kitchen. It is, in short, not sane.

So, 1234: I call your bluff. Name one issue in which the illegalization of abortion could plausibly lead to new inappropriate government intervention in the lives of its citizenry.

If you want to reduce abortion, you need to do three things, in descending order of importance: (1) affirm the humanity and civil rights of the human person, from conception 'till natural death, in every corner of society, from the education system to public service announcements to newspapers to churches (this prong should be modeled on the anti-racism campaigns of the 1950's through 1990's); (2) support the frack out of women in trouble, using the full force of government and private charity to ensure that no woman ever feels that she needs an abortion (of course, since the majority of abortions are abortions-of-convenience, this will only do so much); (3) criminalize abortion, with criminal penalties falling on the abortionists themselves rather than their accomplices/victims, the abortive mothers.

These three prongs are the means to end abortion. All three are strongly supported by the pro-life movement. All three are strongly opposed by the pro-choice movement. Why could that possibly be? Because, despite rhetoric to the contrary, the abortion industry does not want to end abortion. Don't do yourself the disservice of deluding yourself with pro-abortion agitprop. Pay attention to what they are actually saying.

Now, 1234, comes the decisive moment: are you a reasonable, logical person with a scientific mind willing to abandon a hypothesis when the evidence no longer supports it? Or are you an ideologue?
__________________
I blog about religion and the law now.
De Civitate, at jamesjheaney.com/
Check it out.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old Sep 7, '10, 11:58 am
Sherry G's Avatar
Sherry G Sherry G is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Posts: 804
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Dear Wowbagger:

Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old Sep 7, '10, 1:50 pm
StevenFrancis's Avatar
StevenFrancis StevenFrancis is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2007
Posts: 1,191
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cats View Post
I'm a staunch Democrat who disagrees with almost every aspect of the Republican platform except life issues
...So I guess that means I will abstain from voting forever
...but is there anyone else out there in my boat who has basically stopped voting?
You've ended up in a similar pickle than even I found myself in. Just out of curiosity, are you a convert to Catholoicism? (I am). And if so, was it relatively recent? (past 2 - 8 years). (Mine was). Before my conversion calling, I was pretty well planted in the political left camp, though I must admit, I was already getting dissillusioned with Democratic party. So, it's been interesting watching my overtly liberal ideas disappear a little at a time. Not because of the Republican party, as I'm certainly no more fond of them than I was then, but rather because of the doctrines and principles of this Church which I have fallen so deeply in love with, and the teachings of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour.

What happened was really, a kind of letting go of political parties altogether. I was fortunate, (or unfortunate, depending on how you look at it) to be undergoing much of my initial conversion development during this last presidential election. I began the election cycle rooting for Barak Obama, and by November I had disavowed both the Democrat and Republican parties for different reasons, I had switched to the Republican party in order to be able to cast a vote in the Republican primaries for Ron Paul, then went back the next day and registered as independent where I've stayed. I ended up looking for a candidate regardless of party affiliation who espoused the most honest Catholic views and ended up finding a fellow from the Constitution Party named Chuck Baldwin, who I disagreed with on a lot of items, but not nearly as many as I ended up disagreeing on with Obama and McCain.

So in the space of less than a year I made a see change of being a liberal leaning democrat to a 'Catholic first', independent without a party. My whole notion of politics has changed. I don't let it rule my life. I got so caught up in politics that it stole time away from devotion to my Lord, my family, etc..

Anyway, all summed up, I think what really changed were my priorities. I am a Christian first, a father/brother/son/grandfather/uncle/nephew/cousin second (because my Christianity and family will be the same no matter what political ideologies I'm forced to live under), and then finally I'm a citizen of the USA by a lucky accident of birth. I love my country, and am thrilled that we are fortunate enough to be able to at least vote for public offices. There are probably some middle eastern and some African nations where you still can't. But, at the end of the day, when all's said and done, I've become a lot more interested in what I am personally doing for my neighbor than what caesar is doing for my neighbor.

I think the most important elections are city council, county commissioners, aldermen, school board trustees, sherrif, mayor, treasurer, state senate and legislature. I'm thinking the country needs to be re-built from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. Better city councils lead to better mayors, lead to better state legislators, lead to better House of Representatives candidates, leads to better U.S. Senate candidates and better Governors, and better party chairmen, and finally better Presidents. I've been looking at this all backwards my whole life.

Christ calls us to be good citizens of the state. ANY state we live in. ANY body we're subject to.

Christ calls us first to be good Christians. To love the Lord our God will all our minds, with all our hearts, and with all our stength, and our neighbor as ourself.

I found that to sleep better at night, I had to cast votes which conform to my catechized and informed conscience. This led me away from both of the established parties. You may not have the same experience. Many, as you've said, seem to just end up just going Republican for expediency, not thinking of the implications of continuing the 2 party drudgery.

When both the Republican and Democrat candidates are lying to you in the next cycle, ask God in prayer to help you discern which is telling the more truthful, and less hypocritical lies. Ask yourself if ANY issue is more important than the protection of life, and the protection of the dignity of human life. Try to see through utopian mind paintings and stirring speeches and find out what kinds of actions the candidate has done. You will know a tree by it's fruit. The last many batches of trees have had questionable fruit.

The guy I voted for wasn't Catholic, but he was pro-life, and MEANT it. And regarding Pubs and Dems, I say, if we always do what we always did, we'll always get what we always got.

Love God, and without overthinking it, or getting too emotionally caught up in the hoopla, when it comes circus time again, vote the conscience that God gave you. Vote independent if you need to, but vote, so we don't marginalize our rights. Then....once you've voted. Go in peace to love and serve the Lord and your neighbor, and keep being a good citizen to whomever ends up with all the new political jobs.

Your tabernacle will still be right there in your parish, and Jesus will be calling you to come spend an hour with him. Your child will still be there needing new shoes and pencils for school. And the face of Jesus will still be crying out from the homeless man who's asking you for a dollar.

May God bless,

Steven
__________________
"Come to me, all you that labour and are burdened; I will give you rest." (Matt. 11:28)

Yours in Christ, Steven
http://www.http://thecatholiclens.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old Jan 26, '11, 3:57 pm
zenith15 zenith15 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2010
Posts: 434
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

I as of yet have not seen where the church states that the pro life issue is the most important issue and that no matter how many other good things they may stand for that the Church agrees with, that one issue must determine how we vote, and only that one issue. I read the posts that purported to show evidence of this, and that was not at all what it seemed to be saying to me.

I, for one, refuse to vote for a candidate I feel is evil, selfish, greedy, disagrees with everything I believe in, treats the poor like dirt under their feet, etc simply because they are pro life--or, for that matter, simply because their opponent is pro choice. I have discussed this with the Deacon and my RCIA instructor and they both agreed that God does not command us to vote Republican and that many things must be considered when deciding who to vote for. They also told me that some people will certainly disagree, so I expect to get flack. However, that is how I see it right now.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old Jan 26, '11, 4:42 pm
Sherry G's Avatar
Sherry G Sherry G is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Posts: 804
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenith15 View Post
I as of yet have not seen where the church states that the pro life issue is the most important issue and that no matter how many other good things they may stand for that the Church agrees with, that one issue must determine how we vote, and only that one issue. I read the posts that purported to show evidence of this, and that was not at all what it seemed to be saying to me.

I, for one, refuse to vote for a candidate I feel is evil, selfish, greedy, disagrees with everything I believe in, treats the poor like dirt under their feet, etc simply because they are pro life--or, for that matter, simply because their opponent is pro choice. I have discussed this with the Deacon and my RCIA instructor and they both agreed that God does not command us to vote Republican and that many things must be considered when deciding who to vote for. They also told me that some people will certainly disagree, so I expect to get flack. However, that is how I see it right now.
My dear friend, the position on abortion is that it is murder. Look to the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus and you will have to see that you cannot in good conscience support anyone who is willing to support the murder of our most helpless brothers and sisters. This is not just a Catholic issue or teaching. It's a God thing. Greed is not on the par with murder, neither is selfishness. That much should be plain for any person of faith to see and understand. Nothing matters if you are denied the right to existence.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old Jan 26, '11, 5:25 pm
zenith15 zenith15 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2010
Posts: 434
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

I believe that people who are already here are just as important to God as those who are unborn. People quite naturally have more sympathy for an unborn child than a sinful person on death row--but, does God love that person less? Does God value their life less? I don't think so--yet I know of many pro life candidates who are rabidly pro death penalty and who have even had almost certainly innocent men put to death despite extremely compelling evidence of complete innocence, for their own political gain. Most pro life candidates are pro life only as far as it concerns the unborn. Once the baby arrives, it's hands off--they don't want to help the unwed mothers, or the children. My own state has the highest number of uninsured children in the country, and the lowest income lines in order to qualify for state aid. For example, a family of four must make less than $800 per month to qualify for Medicaid.

Again, I refuse to vote for someone I consider to be slimy, without ethics and morals, and taking up the "pro life" flag only because it's popular in their district, JUST because they are pro life. The damage such a person may very well do to those already living--up to and including death in many cases--may outweigh the damage done by a pro choice candidate. I could not respect myself as a citizen or a person of faith if I voted for someone with such single mindedness that I ignored all other implications and did not even care if the person were sincere in his or her belief as long as they vote that one way on that one thing.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old Jan 26, '11, 6:01 pm
JimG JimG is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 23, 2004
Posts: 23,175
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Well, the unborn are also "already here." The only difference is that they may be executed at will up until their 10th month of life. I will be happy to support an anti-death penalty candidate, as long as he or she opposes the death penalty for innocent children as well as those convicted of a crime.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old Jan 26, '11, 7:24 pm
JackQ JackQ is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2005
Posts: 1,077
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cats View Post
I'm a staunch Democrat who disagrees with almost every aspect of the Republican platform except life issues, which I understand are non-negotiable for Catholics. I also understand that, barring extreme circumstances, I'm not permitted to vote for a candidate who is not pro-life.

Unless an extremely moderate Republican comes along (which seems unlikely, the way both parties are being co-opted by their extremists), I can't see myself ever voting Republican.

So I guess that means I will abstain from voting forever, or until the Dems nominate someone pro-life. (And I see the chances of that happening are just about nil.)

From other posts I've read, I suspect the overwhelming majority of posters on these boards are politically conservative, but is there anyone else out there in my boat who has basically stopped voting?
I'm in your boat, except I haven't stopped voting. Go to the USCCB website and read Faithful Citizenship, then pray and do the best you can.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old Jan 26, '11, 7:50 pm
Hastrman Hastrman is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2006
Posts: 1,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

No, actually, since you think the Democrats are right on economics, I'm really going to have to ask you never to vote again.

Allow me to explain. I'm no fan of the inequalities of capitalism—which does not, incidentally, mean a "free market" system, but specifically a free market in which there is a minority investor class that employs the non-investing majority.

But the Democrats' confiscatory taxation policies don't have the slightest effect on that inequality. They simply make the unequal system less efficient. Not having heard that Keynes has been refuted, they will concede that tax cuts for the non-investors drive up consumption. So they'll let the lower tax brackets keep some of their money, though it plainly rankles them. However, not only do tax cuts for the investor class (the "rich") have the same effect, indeed a greater one in proportion to their greater income, but they—being the investor class—also have more money to invest, which benefits the employees, who they can either pay better, or hire more of.

By all means, figure out a way to render every person their own economic master, owner of their own capital; "employer" and "employee" is a subpar way to conduct mankind's economic relations. But unless you do that—and being a state employee is still being an employee, that's why Communism calls itself "the proletarian [i.e. employee] state"—don't screw with that system; all you're doing is making it function less well.

Each and every other Democrat policy I can think of suffers from the same problem, being completely divorced from facts. Gun control? Always increases the violent crime rate; trust me, if there'd been any legitimate research refuting that, you would have heard about it. Abolishing the death penalty? Even making it as complicated as it already is just makes prisons far crueler places, thanks to people who would've been executed in any other era being in the general population.

How 'bout the Democrat foreign policy record? Since he needed German-American votes, Wilson deliberately sabotaged the Versailles Treaty (described by France's Field Marshal Foch as "a ceasefire for 20 years"—almost exactly 20 years before the Nazis invaded Poland); Wilson's theories about race (which also made him a segregationist) led him to create Yugoslavia, rather than letting Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks each have their own state, like a sane person. Korea, Nam, "we can live with Uncle Joe"...all of them Democrat debacles. How about the Bay of Pigs?

If you can't vote for Republicans, then don't vote. Really. I despise the right wing myself—just slightly less than the left wing—but, thank you, I despise their actual flaws, not the mythological version of them.
__________________
The vision of a haloed host
That weep around an empty throne;
And, aureoles dark and angels dead,
Man with his own life stands alone.

'I am,' he says his bankrupt creed:
'I am,' and is again a clod:
The sparrow starts, the grasses stir,
For he has said the name of God.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old Jan 26, '11, 10:39 pm
JimG JimG is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 23, 2004
Posts: 23,175
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: never able to vote again?

I started out as a JFK Democrat. But the Democrats of his day had more in common with today's GOP than with the current Democratic Party. Even after Roe v Wade, abortion was not a partisan issue. There were pro-life and pro-abortion contingents in both parties. But very soon, the Democrats took on being favorable to abortion as the ultimate litmus test. As mentioned in a previous post, pro-life Democrat Bob Casey (Sr) was not even allowed to speak at the Democratic Convention. The recently deceased Sargent Shriver was pro-life and anti-abortion, but that is no longer possible.

Kansas actually had a pro-life Democratic governor for one term--Joan Finney. She could not exist in the current Democratic Party, which is firmly pro-abortion.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old Jan 26, '11, 11:22 pm
dusty david dusty david is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2010
Posts: 157
Religion: none
Default Re: never able to vote again?

After reading this thread there simply is no choice what party a christian should support.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old Jan 26, '11, 11:26 pm
Reservoir Dog Reservoir Dog is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 22, 2010
Posts: 1,179
Religion: Anglican Church in North America
Default Re: never able to vote again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cats View Post
...
So I guess that means I will abstain from voting forever, or until the Dems nominate someone pro-life. (And I see the chances of that happening are just about nil.)...
Being in the GOP, I applaud your decision never to vote again. Stand fast, my friend, stand fast.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Social Justice

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8569Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Kellyreneeomara
5241CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4436Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3896Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3876SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3463Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3318Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3237Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3171For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: eschator83



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:41 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.