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  #1  
Old Sep 3, '10, 8:56 pm
Pieman333272 Pieman333272 is offline
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Default If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

I have an Indian Dream Catcher in my room, I only have it for decoration and don't think it actually catches/influences dreams, much less at the hands of a Native American God. Can I have it as a decoration? As I believe there is nothing special about it, I naturally don't worship it or call on it.
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Old Sep 3, '10, 11:02 pm
Mickey Finn Mickey Finn is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by Pieman333272 View Post
I have an Indian Dream Catcher in my room, I only have it for decoration and don't think it actually catches/influences dreams, much less at the hands of a Native American God. Can I have it as a decoration? As I believe there is nothing special about it, I naturally don't worship it or call on it.
I have one.
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Old Sep 3, '10, 11:33 pm
seanflynn seanflynn is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

I've heard that it's not ok for any reason from a very militant Catholic sister of mine. But if she's wrong, then I think you can apply St. Paul's teaching on eating meat sacrificed to idols in this case. Basically, is it ok to do what the pagans do if you know it's baloney or aren't actually spiritualizing the items in question? Intrinsically, there's no problem. HOWEVER: You may lead people astray if they aren't on the same page as you, so it's better not to do anything with pagan associations.

Hope that helps.
  #4  
Old Sep 4, '10, 12:08 am
milkbar milkbar is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

Since it's unlikely you're going to have anyone in your home who doesn't know you well enough to know better than to think you believe dream catchers have any real function beyond decoration, and since dream catchers don't exactly have the same negative visual/mental connotations as, say, pentagrams, I doubt it would be a problem to have them in your own home. Whether I'd wear one as jewelry--seeing as how I also wear a crucifix--or whether I'd hang one from my rearview mirror (especially if I had Catholic bumper stickers or the like) is another question. I'd lean towards no.
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Old Sep 4, '10, 1:22 am
Michael1985 Michael1985 is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

Iím afraid itís not okay, itís a form of idolatry. You are saying that a piece or wood and string has divine powers, or something else other than God.

It also draws people away from God, because you are depending on something else, rather than God who is everything.

If itís just for decoration, and someone else sees it who doesnít know better might think they are okay.
  #6  
Old Sep 4, '10, 4:42 am
Newbie2 Newbie2 is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by Michael1985 View Post
Iím afraid itís not okay, itís a form of idolatry. You are saying that a piece or wood and string has divine powers, or something else other than God.
It also draws people away from God, because you are depending on something else, rather than God who is everything.

If itís just for decoration, and someone else sees it who doesnít know better might think they are okay.
Who said they believe that?


Dreamcatchers, Easter Bunny, Santa Clause (distinct from St. Nicholas)...all are OK IFthey're considered harmless myths. Like anything else, as everyone has said so far, if any powers or adulation is accorded to them...that is problematic.
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Old Sep 5, '10, 4:14 am
Mickey Finn Mickey Finn is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by Michael1985 View Post
Iím afraid itís not okay, itís a form of idolatry. You are saying that a piece or wood and string has divine powers, or something else other than God.

It also draws people away from God, because you are depending on something else, rather than God who is everything.

If itís just for decoration, and someone else sees it who doesnít know better might think they are okay.


http://www.native-languages.org/dreamcatchers.htm

Some Indians think dream-catchers are a sweet and loving little tradition, others consider them a symbol of native unity, and still others think of them as sort of the Indian equivalent of a tacky plastic Jesus hanging in your truck.

ATB

p.s. Please forgive me for resorting to a link.
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  #8  
Old Sep 5, '10, 12:50 pm
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centurionguard centurionguard is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by Newbie2 View Post
Who said they believe that?


Dreamcatchers, Easter Bunny, Santa Clause (distinct from St. Nicholas)...all are OK IFthey're considered harmless myths. Like anything else, as everyone has said so far, if any powers or adulation is accorded to them...that is problematic.
Quote:
Easter Bunny, Santa Clause (distinct from St. Nicholas)...all are OK IFthey're considered harmless myths.
But who ever said that a Catholic caught up in Native Spiritualism was really OK?

Quote:
Like anything else, as everyone has said so far, if any powers or adulation is accorded to them...that is problematic
Really; I don't see why any true Catholic should pay any fixation to Dream Catchers as a decoration placed on automobile rear-view mirrors when a true Catholic should known it does advocate Native Spiritualism. I would ask any Catholic who uses such decoration in their homes or vehicles just what message their trying to advocate to others who see such display.

I see it as being problematic in sending the wrong message to other people who have no Christian background.
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  #9  
Old Sep 5, '10, 1:34 pm
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
Really; I don't see why any true Catholic should pay any fixation to Dream Catchers as a decoration placed on automobile rear-view mirrors when a true Catholic should known it does advocate Native Spiritualism. I would ask any Catholic who uses such decoration in their homes or vehicles just what message their trying to advocate to others who see such display.
This smells rather badly of the True Scotsman fallacy. Furthermore, Tolkien used runes in his fantasy works. Why aren't you accusing him of promoting Euro-Pagan spirituality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
I see it as being problematic in sending the wrong message to other people who have no Christian background.
Some people don't even have an educational background so why should you take responsibility for other people's ignorance? And honestly, if we're going to accuse people who possess dream catchers of idolatry, how do we explain to your supposed man of no Christian background that we're not hypocrites when they see our statues of the saints?
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  #10  
Old Sep 5, '10, 5:34 pm
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centurionguard centurionguard is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by Lost Wanderer View Post
This smells rather badly of the True Scotsman fallacy. Furthermore, Tolkien used runes in his fantasy works. Why aren't you accusing him of promoting Euro-Pagan spirituality?



Some people don't even have an educational background so why should you take responsibility for other people's ignorance? And honestly, if we're going to accuse people who possess dream catchers of idolatry, how do we explain to your supposed man of no Christian background that we're not hypocrites when they see our statues of the saints?

Quote:
This smells rather badly of the True Scotsman fallacy.
How so?
Please elaborate.

I can hardly see where your trying to bring any remote comparison between what a Native Dream Catcher represents to Native Indians and what a Catholic statue of Jesus, Mary or our Saints represents to Catholics which is a far cry from the American Native Ojibwa (Chippewa) tribe) of Indians originally using woven Dream Catchers to protect their children from bad dreams. Nothing in anyway personal against Native Indians but What Deity did Native Indians attribute their saving spiritual grace of using Dream Catchers to?

And really this is a far cry from children feeling comforted by a Teddy Bear or Dream Catcher from a representational point of view. It's secular adults who place some onus of magical use of using Dream Catchers in the same way paying heed to Horoscopes, Tarot Cards and the likes.

I will admit that there is a certain aspect of Native Spirituality that might seem attractive to some. But it is essentially empty from a Catholic spiritual aspect of giving spiritual reverence towards God Almighty.

Quote:
Some people don't even have an educational background so why should you take responsibility for other people's ignorance?
Now this is a judgmental statement if I ever heard one. Why are you categorizing me? I'm not against Native Indians. And as for the responsibility of some Native Indians lacking educational background that's up to qualified Christian professionals and theologians who are adept in educational fields.

Quote:
Dreamcatchers are an authentic American Indian tradition, from the Ojibwa (Chippewa) tribe. Ojibwe people would tie sinew strands in a web around a small round or tear-shaped frame--in a somewhat similar pattern to how they tied webbing for their snowshoes--and hang this "dream-catcher" as a charm to protect sleeping children from nightmares. The legend is that the bad dreams will get caught in the web. Traditionally Native American dream catchers are small (only a few inches across) and made of bent wood and sinew string with a feather hanging from the netting, but wrapping the frame in leather is also pretty common, and today you'll often see them made with sturdier string meant to last longer. During the pan-Indian movement in the 60's and 70's, Ojibway dream catchers started to get popular in other Native American tribes, even those in disparate places like the Cherokee, Lakota, and Navajo. So dreamcatchers aren't traditional in most Indian cultures, per se, but they're sort of neo-traditional, like fry bread. Today you see them hanging in lots of places other than a child's cradleboard or nursery, like the living room or your rearview mirror. Some Indians think dream-catchers are a sweet and loving little tradition, others consider them a symbol of native unity, and still others think of them as sort of the Indian equivalent of a tacky plastic Jesus hanging in your truck.
Personally; I'll take the tacky plastic Jesus hanging from my rear-view mirror.
Nothing magical or alluding to fantasy in in a statue of Jesus, Mary or a Saint hanging from your rear-view mirror in sitting on a coffee table in your living room or bedside table.
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  #11  
Old Sep 5, '10, 9:24 pm
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
How so?
Please elaborate.
You say only a "true Catholic" would believe using a Dream Catcher as a knickknack is equal to promoting Native Spiritualism. So I guess the fact that I see I a dream catcher more as a nifty work of art and less of a Native American thing means I'm not a "true Catholic"?

Again, True Scotsman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
I can hardly see where your trying to bring any remote comparison between what a Native Dream Catcher represents to Native Indians and what a Catholic statue of Jesus, Mary or our Saints represents to Catholics which is a far cry from the American Native Ojibwa (Chippewa) tribe) of Indians originally using woven Dream Catchers to protect their children from bad dreams. Nothing in anyway personal against Native Indians but What Deity did Native Indians attribute their saving spiritual grace of using Dream Catchers to?
Fine then, perhaps statues were bad parallel but what about the Rosary? Holy water? Sacred salt? How about even our own Eucharist? These are but many items recommended by exorcists to protect against demons the same way Native Indians believe about dream catchers. To your hypothetical person of non-Christian background, what's to stop him/her from saying they're pretty much the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
And really this is a far cry from children feeling comforted by a Teddy Bear or Dream Catcher from a representational point of view. It's secular adults who place some onus of magical use of using Dream Catchers in the same way paying heed to Horoscopes, Tarot Cards and the likes.

I will admit that there is a certain aspect of Native Spirituality that might seem attractive to some. But it is essentially empty from a Catholic spiritual aspect of giving spiritual reverence towards God Almighty.
And this is a far cry from the original topic of whether or not something is good to use for decoration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
Now this is a judgmental statement if I ever heard one. Why are you categorizing me? I'm not against Native Indians. And as for the responsibility of some Native Indians lacking educational background that's up to qualified Christian professionals and theologians who are adept in educational fields.
Why don't you rewind and read my post as whole instead of botched up bits and pieces before you accuse people? My point about the educational background is, why should you take responsibility for someone who knows not what he/she sees? Why should you please someone who judges out of ignorance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
Personally; I'll take the tacky plastic Jesus hanging from my rear-view mirror.
Nothing magical or alluding to fantasy in in a statue of Jesus, Mary or a Saint hanging from your rear-view mirror in sitting on a coffee table in your living room or bedside table.
If you're a sucker for Renaissance artwork and sculpture, be my guest. However, you got a beef with people who are into the magic and fantasy genre? Frankly, I'd rather have this cute little picture of a bookish elementalist on my desktop wallpaper (or on the wall of my room... if I ever get my own room >_<ll ). Still, I don't go around dissing people for not conforming to my taste in decoration.
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  #12  
Old Sep 5, '10, 10:37 pm
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by Lost Wanderer View Post
You say only a "true Catholic" would believe using a Dream Catcher as a knickknack is equal to promoting Native Spiritualism. So I guess the fact that I see I a dream catcher more as a nifty work of art and less of a Native American thing means I'm not a "true Catholic"?

Again, True Scotsman.

Get a grip friend. Where did you get the confounded idea I accused you of not being a true Catholic?



Fine then, perhaps statues were bad parallel but what about the Rosary? Holy water? Sacred salt? How about even our own Eucharist? These are but many items recommended by exorcists to protect against demons the same way Native Indians believe about dream catchers. To your hypothetical person of non-Christian background, what's to stop him/her from saying they're pretty much the same.

I fail to see any parallel thinking here that ties in your comparison between placing a Rosary, Holy Water or Blessed Salt in the same use of using a Dream Catcher.
Please explain how you see the use of a Dream Catcher being used as a Sacramental Sign in comparison to a Rosary, Holy Water or Blessed Salt?


And this is a far cry from the original topic of whether or not something is good to use for decoration.

In your mind perhaps it is a far cry. Personally; I have nothing against Native Indians using their Dream Catcher in the context they define. However; I could never see how the Catholic Church would adopt its usage. Mostly for the fact in today's society it has become a secular magical device that advocates no Christ-like message.



Why don't you rewind and read my post as whole instead of botched up bits and pieces before you accuse people? My point about the educational background is, why should you take responsibility for someone who knows not what he/she sees? Why should you please someone who judges out of ignorance?

I read your post. Regrettably; it is you you have botched up trying to coerce Catholics that this magical secular Dream Catcher device is perfectly and morally acceptable.




If you're a sucker for Renaissance artwork and sculpture, be my guest. However, you got a beef with people who are into the magic and fantasy genre? Frankly, I'd rather have this cute little picture of a bookish elementalist on my desktop wallpaper (or on the wall of my room... if I ever get my own room >_<ll ). Still, I don't go around dissing people for not conforming to my taste in decoration.
Quote:
If you're a sucker for Renaissance artwork and sculpture, be my guest. However, you got a beef with people who are into the magic and fantasy genre?
I have no beef with you or anyone else who delves into magic and fantasy. You do have the Freedom to choose whatever fancies your mind and heart.

I only ask how does secular magic and fantasy bring you closer to God?
How does secular magic and fantasy bring a Catholic closer to understanding Moral Theology in the context of the Catholic Church and finding spiritual union with Jesus Christ?

Peace
Chris
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  #13  
Old Sep 6, '10, 1:23 pm
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

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Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
Get a grip friend. Where did you get the confounded idea I accused you of not being a true Catholic?
Do you have a problem reading your own posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
Really; I don't see why any true Catholic should pay any fixation to Dream Catchers as a decoration placed on automobile rear-view mirrors when a true Catholic should known it does advocate Native Spiritualism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
I fail to see any parallel thinking here that ties in your comparison between placing a Rosary, Holy Water or Blessed Salt in the same use of using a Dream Catcher.
Please explain how you see the use of a Dream Catcher being used as a Sacramental Sign in comparison to a Rosary, Holy Water or Blessed Salt?
They're both regarded as protective items against evil by their respective religions. How you fail to see that parallel tells me a lot about your comprehensive thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
I read your post. Regrettably; it is you you have botched up trying to coerce Catholics that this magical secular Dream Catcher device is perfectly and morally acceptable.
Uh... cuz it is? Thanks for dodging my point. You're not really reading my posts now are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by centurionguard View Post
I only ask how does secular magic and fantasy bring you closer to God?
How does secular magic and fantasy bring a Catholic closer to understanding Moral Theology in the context of the Catholic Church and finding spiritual union with Jesus Christ?
This is ridiculous. Can't you see you can separate your religion and spirituality from trivialities such choice of entertainment and taste in decoration? Topics such as God and Moral Theology are serious business so I don't see why you would place the burden of teaching such things on mere entertainment and decoration preferences. Simply put, to substitute Religion for Entertainment is as laughable a farce as substituting Entertainment for Religion.
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  #14  
Old Sep 7, '10, 4:39 am
dreamingformore dreamingformore is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

I may be totally off base here, but are we talking about seeing a dream catcher in someones bedroom?

I have 2 in my room. I think they are pretty. I don't believe they have any ability.

No one goes in my room except close friends who know me, and my husband... no "people who don't know Christ who I might lead astray...."
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Old Sep 7, '10, 6:39 am
PatriceA PatriceA is offline
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Default Re: If used for decoration, are Dream Catchers OK?

I have one. Given to me by a friend that is Native American. I don't see it as anything other than a gift from a friend, sharing their culture and background, and I was honored to receive it.
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