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  #1  
Old Sep 7, '10, 8:21 am
LongJohnSilver LongJohnSilver is offline
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Default Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

I am debating some Protestants, and they countered my argument for the Immaculate Conception of Mary by claiming that, according to the same reasoning, the mother of Mary too should have been born without sin. What arguments can I use to refute that claim?

Thanks a lot.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 8:27 am
ChadS ChadS is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

Could you elaborate on this please, or at least have your Protestant debaters elaborate on this? There's nothing in the Catholic teaching on the Immaculate Conception that would necessitate her mother being immaculately conceived. Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin at the moment of her conception, so I think implicit in that would be the understanding that both of her parents possessed original sin.

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Old Sep 7, '10, 10:03 am
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FidesSpesCarita FidesSpesCarita is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by LongJohnSilver View Post
I am debating some Protestants, and they countered my argument for the Immaculate Conception of Mary by claiming that, according to the same reasoning, the mother of Mary too should have been born without sin. What arguments can I use to refute that claim?

Thanks a lot.
Well, and I am shooting from the hip here, if Mary is the new Ark then SHE had to be clean, not the ground the metal was mined, not the tree the wood was taken from, etc. Just the VESSEL needed to be clean, not the entire line of things which made the vessel. Kind of like the sacred vessels used in the Temple services required sanctity, but the mines the gold was taken from were not sacred. The one stipulation was that nothing which was used to prepare these vessels had ever been profaned through idol worship, worship of false gods, or used for any profane (ordinary) purpose.

Again, just shooting from the hip.


FSC
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  #4  
Old Sep 7, '10, 10:03 am
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Mumbles140 Mumbles140 is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by ChadS View Post
Could you elaborate on this please, or at least have your Protestant debaters elaborate on this? There's nothing in the Catholic teaching on the Immaculate Conception that would necessitate her mother being immaculately conceived. Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin at the moment of her conception, so I think implicit in that would be the understanding that both of her parents possessed original sin.

ChadS
I agree with Chad that more information is needed. However, I can state that I find no logical necessity that St. Anne be free of original sin for Mary to be conceived as such - it was the miracle of God that prevented the stain of sin from every affecting Mary.

Also, St. Anne did not give birth to Our Lord Jesus Christ - Mary did. If the Immaculate Conception was to keep her free from sin to give birth to God Incarnate, then it would follow that this would be unnecessary for St. Anne.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 10:52 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FidesSpesCarita View Post
Well, and I am shooting from the hip here, if Mary is the new Ark then SHE had to be clean, not the ground the metal was mined, not the tree the wood was taken from, etc. Just the VESSEL needed to be clean, not the entire line of things which made the vessel. Kind of like the sacred vessels used in the Temple services required sanctity, but the mines the gold was taken from were not sacred. The one stipulation was that nothing which was used to prepare these vessels had ever been profaned through idol worship, worship of false gods, or used for any profane (ordinary) purpose.

Again, just shooting from the hip.


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That was a pretty good shot, I must say so myself!
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Old Sep 7, '10, 1:55 pm
LongJohnSilver LongJohnSilver is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

Thanks all!

The reasoning they have, is that if Mary needs to be without sin in order for Jesus to be born without sin, than following this reasoning, Mary's mother needs to be without sin too.

Any more arguments? I like the 'hip shooting' about the vessel, but I'm not sure the protestants will be very much moved by the idea of the Ark as image of Mary.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 2:19 pm
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by LongJohnSilver View Post
Thanks all!

The reasoning they have, is that if Mary needs to be without sin in order for Jesus to be born without sin, than following this reasoning, Mary's mother needs to be without sin too.

Any more arguments? I like the 'hip shooting' about the vessel, but I'm not sure the protestants will be very much moved by the idea of the Ark as image of Mary.
But it is just like what was said about the Ark - Mary needed to be the Sacred Vessel, free from all sin, to carry Our Lord in her womb. Therefore, through the miraculous powers of God Almighty, He prevented Mary from being marked by the stain of sin. Mary doesn't need a 'spotless line' to avoid original sin because only God can prevent us from the inheritance of original sin passed down from Adam and Eve in the garden.

And personally, I believe the best argument made has been by FSC - it defends the holiness and purity of Mary while clearly explaining why it was unnecessary (and, therefore, did not occur) for St. Anne to also be free of sin.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 2:22 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by Mumbles140 View Post
But it is just like what was said about the Ark - Mary needed to be the Sacred Vessel, free from all sin, to carry Our Lord in her womb. Therefore, through the miraculous powers of God Almighty, He prevented Mary from being marked by the stain of sin. Mary doesn't need a 'spotless line' to avoid original sin because only God can prevent us from the inheritance of original sin passed down from Adam and Eve in the garden.

And personally, I believe the best argument made has been by FSC - it defends the holiness and purity of Mary while clearly explaining why it was unnecessary (and, therefore, did not occur) for St. Anne to also be free of sin.
Correction:

According to Church teaching the Immaculate Conception was not "necessary", but "fitting". God could have chosen many other means for Jesus to come into the world.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 2:29 pm
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by davidv View Post
Correction:

According to Church teaching the Immaculate Conception was not "necessary", but "fitting". God could have chosen many other means for Jesus to come into the world.
Sorry for the mix-up, although I'm not quite sure which statement you are referring to. I agree with your statement, but I am not certain what I said that caused readers to be confused about my argument.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 3:16 pm
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by LongJohnSilver View Post
Thanks all!

The reasoning they have, is that if Mary needs to be without sin in order for Jesus to be born without sin, than following this reasoning, Mary's mother needs to be without sin too.

Any more arguments? I like the 'hip shooting' about the vessel, but I'm not sure the protestants will be very much moved by the idea of the Ark as image of Mary.
I don't know why your friends won't be moved. This has been a teaching of the Church even before the Church "was led off the rails by Constantine"!

Seriously, I would show them how the Church teaches that Mary is the Ark and why. Let them decide. It really is an absolutely beautiful teaching and it is both well-founded and well-grounded.
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Old Sep 7, '10, 6:11 pm
ChadS ChadS is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
I don't know why your friends won't be moved. This has been a teaching of the Church even before the Church "was led off the rails by Constantine"!

Seriously, I would show them how the Church teaches that Mary is the Ark and why. Let them decide. It really is an absolutely beautiful teaching and it is both well-founded and well-grounded.

I grew up as a Protestant and I can tell you that arguing they should believe a Catholic doctrine based upon its antiquity, regardless of when it came about will do nothing for a Protestant. If it can't be clearly found in the Bible they will have absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Old Sep 8, '10, 5:35 am
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by ChadS View Post
I grew up as a Protestant and I can tell you that arguing they should believe a Catholic doctrine based upon its antiquity, regardless of when it came about will do nothing for a Protestant. If it can't be clearly found in the Bible they will have absolutely nothing to do with it.

ChadS
Very true, and yet so ironic because much of what they believe is shaped from Tradition, most notably the books in the Bible!
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Old Sep 8, '10, 7:27 am
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FidesSpesCarita FidesSpesCarita is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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Originally Posted by LongJohnSilver View Post
Thanks all!

The reasoning they have, is that if Mary needs to be without sin in order for Jesus to be born without sin, than following this reasoning, Mary's mother needs to be without sin too.

Any more arguments? I like the 'hip shooting' about the vessel, but I'm not sure the protestants will be very much moved by the idea of the Ark as image of Mary.
Read HERE and HERE for more information on typology and Mary as the new Ark.

The other argument that might prove useful is the fact that there was a long-standing (since Solomon) tradition among the Davidic line that the Queen was always the Kings mother. This was caused by the polygamy that Solomon involved himself in and the necessity for a Queen. The only responsible way to provide a Queen when faced with more than one wife was to have it be the kings mother. The Queen Mother (as shown in 1 and 2 kings) was given precedence over all other people in the kingdom second only to the King (in this case that would be Jesus). Since we can see in Solomons case that Bathsheba did not always ask for the correct thing out of her sinfulness and was therefore rejected, her sinful nature caused her to be a bit of a... liability (for lack of a better word). But since we can see at the wedding feast at Cana that Christ did not refuse his mothers request to provide wine (even though it was not yet His time) she MUST have asked for something pure, righteous, and good, especially since she made this request of Christ and was not rejected. We can also see her absolute humility in her statement to the servants "Do whatever he tells you". Now what mother do you know who would say to her son "You need to fix this", then being told "Woman what problem of this is ours" would simply reply, to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you"? That shows a humility far surpassing anyone I have ever known. Since pride is the primary sin (arguably the greatest of all sins due to its "gateway" nature to the other sins) and humility is its opposite virtue, does it not stand to reason that absolute humility would negate pride, leading to the conclusion that there was no pride? And since Pride is the beginning of all sin (just my opinion here) then how could she sin?

There is also the argument over the greek "kecharitomene" which is properly translated "Full of Grace" and is applied as a title which is used when Gabriel comes to request that Mary bear the Son of God. How can one be "Full of Grace" if one is possessed of sin? Doesnt the apostle tell us that anyone who commits sin is a slave to sin? It is not possible to be BOTH a sinner and Full of Grace. This argument, however, requires them to accept that kecharitomene is a TITLE, not an adjective, which is shown by the fact that Charitoo is an adjective for grace/graced (not sure which off the top of my head) while the pre/suf-fix combination ke and mene always sandwich a word when it is being used as a title (to the best of my knowledge that is true, but i am not a scholar of biblical greek).

There is lots of info about the greek on here, and in This Rock.

This argument is VERY easy to prove the Catholic perspective IF and only IF the protestant is willing to accept the above and put aside their preconceptions of who and what the Blessed Virgin is.

Also, the funny thing is that Mary says "From this day all generations will call me blessed" yet I have almost never heard a protestant call her the Blessed Mary, the Blessed Virgin, or even just Blessed.


FSC

EDIT see HERE for Mary as the Queen Mother
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Old Sep 8, '10, 8:21 am
Rightlydivide Rightlydivide is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

If I can piggy back on what David said, Catholic teaching is that it is fitting; not needed. As such when a Catholic argues that it was NEEDED, it goes beyond Catholic teaching and you place yourself in a disadvantage when arguing with us.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it was needed but fitting. Read it for yourself
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm
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Old Sep 8, '10, 8:28 am
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FidesSpesCarita FidesSpesCarita is offline
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Default Re: Why wasn't the mother of Mary immaculate conceived?

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If I can piggy back on what David said, Catholic teaching is that it is fitting; not needed. As such when a Catholic argues that it was NEEDED, it goes beyond Catholic teaching and you place yourself in a disadvantage when arguing with us.
The Catholic Church does not teach that it was needed but fitting. Read it for yourself
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm
I agree with this. If I gave any other impression I apologize. I just work with a fallen away Catholic and a hardcore fundamentalist and tend to phrase things a bit more strongly than they sometimes need to be stated.
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