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  #271  
Old Jan 28, '11, 9:19 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Dear brother SCALCO,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCALCO View Post
I appreciate your response. Is this the only reason not to consider Pope Clement's letter an example of papal infallibility?
There is another reason - the fact that Pope St. Clement was only addressing the Church in Corinth and not the universal Church. My response to brother Aramis might explain it a bit more (next post below).

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #272  
Old Jan 28, '11, 9:22 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Dear brother Aramis,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
You're mincing words.

Pope St. Clement speaks with the full authority of the Church. He states that he's sending the teachings of the church.

His teaching in his letters is considered infallible, and an exercise in infallibility, and it has never been overturned, even tho he never mentions it as such.

They were a mixture of material on faith and morals as well as discipline, and he was speaking ex-cathedra as the head of the church, and therefore, by the definitions in VI, it is infallible on the faith and morals issues.
I can agree that as far as Pope St. Clement was teaching, he was exercising the infallible Magisterium. But I would more concisely say that what he was exercising was not papal infallibility (which is defined as an exercise of the extraordinary Magisterium), but simply the infallibility of the ordinary Magisterium.

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #273  
Old Jan 28, '11, 11:53 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
Dear brother Vico,


The classic ecclesiology of St. Ignatius of Antioch should be considered in this statement. He states that our bishops generally speak to us as God on earth. We would hope and pray that all the actions of our hierarchs are true works of God. This does not mean that everything they do or say has been graced with infallibility. Infallibility refers to a very specific action of the hierarchy.

Just because St. Clement states that "God has spoken through us" or that there is "no slight transgression and danger" does not necessarily mean that it is a matter of faith and morals. Disobedience is certainly a sin, but disobedience in the context of St. Clement's letter was a cause of schism. But schism is not the same thing as heresy. If the Church in Corinth was being heretical, then I would agree that Pope St. Clement was exercising infallibility. But infallibility does not come into play on a matter of obedience.

Blessings,
Marduk
Thanks Mardukm,

Note that in the seminal post #229 I did not say infallible teaching authority. Sometimes the conversion gets a bit confusing and meanders with so many questions asked. I believe it pertains to faith and morals however if it does not, and is disciplinary, then it is still an example of teaching authority. *

"On your question about examples, I posted "So these are examples of where faith and morals are presented with certainty, such as was quoted earlier in this thread:" and then I gave the Clement quote as one such example. The examples are what we began with in post # 193, but also whatever followed that I posted.

Pope Saint Clement said: "..if ye render obedience unto the things written by us through the Holy Spirit...". This is an example of the teaching authority of the Supreme Pontiff."

Note that Catholic Encyclopedia (Infallibility) states:
But the fact cannot be denied that from the beginning there was a widespread acknowledgment by other churches of some kind of supreme authority in the Roman pontiff in regard not only to disciplinary but also to doctrinal affairs. This is clear for example, from:

+ Clement's Letter to the Corinthians at the end of the first century, ...
* Heresy is a sin against truth, schism a sin against unity and love.
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  #274  
Old Jan 30, '11, 4:15 am
SCALCO SCALCO is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
Dear brother SCALCO,


There is another reason - the fact that Pope St. Clement was only addressing the Church in Corinth and not the universal Church. My response to brother Aramis might explain it a bit more (next post below).
Hi Mardukm,

I agree, but still have one line of questioning on this. Does it have to be made sufficiently clear or can this be an implied intent? I know present day teaching must be clear that it is addressed to the whole Church, but due to communication limitations, wasn't sure if this applied historically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
Dear brother Aramis,


I can agree that as far as Pope St. Clement was teaching, he was exercising the infallible Magisterium. But I would more concisely say that what he was exercising was not papal infallibility (which is defined as an exercise of the extraordinary Magisterium), but simply the infallibility of the ordinary Magisterium.

Blessings,
Marduk
So you are saying that Clement was excercising an infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium?

I thought this had to also pertain to faith and morals? Sorry for my poor knowledge.

Thanks and God bless.
Scalco
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  #275  
Old Jan 31, '11, 12:44 am
Aramis Aramis is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCALCO View Post
Hi Mardukm,

I agree, but still have one line of questioning on this. Does it have to be made sufficiently clear or can this be an implied intent? I know present day teaching must be clear that it is addressed to the whole Church, but due to communication limitations, wasn't sure if this applied historically.



So you are saying that Clement was excercising an infallible teaching of the ordinary Magisterium?

I thought this had to also pertain to faith and morals? Sorry for my poor knowledge.

Thanks and God bless.
Scalco
Some parts do talk of faith and morals, whole the overall is disciplinary. St. Clement didn't make clear distinctions between the two, in the same way neither did St. Peter nor St Paul.
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  #276  
Old Jan 31, '11, 1:41 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Quote:
=Vince1022;7500910]Neither John's Gospel nor the Letter of Clement mention infallibility in and of itself.

There is a difference between the Church teaching truth (which of course it does, and has always been considered to do so) and the Church teaching specific matters infallibly.
The current Current of Canon Law states:

Infaaibility apples ONLY to the catagories of Faith and Morals, and even then it must be proclaimed specifically as such.

That said: it goes on to say that:

Can. 748 1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

Can. 749 1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

Can. 750 1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

God Bless, Pat
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  #277  
Old Feb 1, '11, 12:56 am
SCALCO SCALCO is offline
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Default Re: Infallibility - revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
Some parts do talk of faith and morals, whole the overall is disciplinary. St. Clement didn't make clear distinctions between the two, in the same way neither did St. Peter nor St Paul.
Dear Aramis,

Can you share which parts of Clement's letter you believe pertain to faith and morals?

Earlier, Mardukm said the Letter of Clement was not an example of papal infallibility because it did not pertain to faith and morals, but then said it was an exercise of the infallible ordinary Magisterium. I thought if infallibility of any form was involved, it had to pertain to faith and morals.

God bless,
Scalco
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